Well, the biggest news is that in my church (Byzantine Catholic Pittsburgh Metropolia) we are getting a new bishop and our present bishop William is going to Passaic, NJ. I'm not sure yet how this bodes for our eparchy out west (Van Nuys). It does seem that each change of eparch notches us closer to our final dissolution as a viable church in the United States of (Complacency and) Assimilation where ethinc churches like the Ruthenian Church seem to dissappear into the assimilated fog of an increasingly secularised America.
Friday, December 14, 2007
Thursday, October 11, 2007
The phantom missing posts after midnight Oct 11, 2007....
Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=255770#Post255770
[quote=Dr John]
Let us please get beyond the 'externals' and focus on the ESSENTIAL elements of our Church: prayer, fasting, liturgy and 'koinotis' (=community) that lead us to salvation.
Blessings to ALL!
Dr John [/quote]
I agree, yet another reason why the full and official Ruthenian Rescension should be practiced and all this nonsense of the RDL should never have happened. Instead prayer, fasting, and I would add evangelization and renewal of our Orthodox roots should be focused on. + Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict both have called us to this, why don't we listen?
Monomakh
Theophilos replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=255991#Post255991
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Just wondering when the moderator is going to step in and admonish those posters who are taking patently uncharitable personal jabs at defenders of the RDL? To wit:
[quote]I am glad that you like the changes. More power to you my friend. My local RC parish has a Polka Mass a few times a year. You should come, you'd probably like that as well! [/quote] (Slavipodvizhnik, post 255949)
[quote]If you REALLY like the changes of the RDL, go back and read the post Stephanie Kotyuh made a few up from here. You might want to join that parish! [/quote] (Etnick, post 255953)
Are these kinds of comments really necessary? If so, perhaps I can offer an observation along these very lines:
If the two of you think the RDL, for all its shortcomings, is akin to a polka mass or a "guitar liturgy" in a nominally Byzantine parish in Cleveland, then you have given me good reason to fear, and perhaps to weep, for my family, friends and colleagues in the Orthodox Church.
For all the talk about having or not having @#$%$, it seems to me that it is the two of you need to grow up and be men.
Theophilos
Diak replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256000#Post256000
It has gone both ways, Theophilos, which can be pointed out - but which would help nothing. At least there is somewhere to discuss such things, "rough around the edges" though it may be.
Try sitting in on a discussion of evolution in public school curricula in Kansas, or any number of scientific or political controversies. In spite of all this is quite civil, I can assure you.
Etnick replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256012#Post256012
[quote=lcanthony]As author of this thread I had hoped for more than the usual body slamming of our Liturgy. If you want to split hairs I suspect our ancestors of centuries past would take umbrage with any version of the Divine Liturgy used in the last 200 years. THe Divine Liturgy is a living organism, always changing as societies and cultures change. If you want to be Orthodox, go ahead and be Orthodox. I've been there and done that. They go through their changes, Russian, Greek, OCA, Old Rite, new calendar, etc. They certainly aren't one big happy family. What is the goal of this fight other than the sake of a unhealthy dose of self righteousness? [/quote]
Theophilos, What were you saying about charity? :confused:
Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256038#Post256038
[quote=Theophilos]
[quote]I am glad that you like the changes. More power to you my friend. My local RC parish has a Polka Mass a few times a year. You should come, you'd probably like that as well! [/quote] (Slavipodvizhnik, post 255949)
[quote]If you REALLY like the changes of the RDL, go back and read the post Stephanie Kotyuh made a few up from here. You might want to join that parish! [/quote] (Etnick, post 255953)
Are these kinds of comments really necessary? If so, perhaps I can offer an observation along these very lines:
If the two of you think the RDL, for all its shortcomings, is akin to a polka mass or a "guitar liturgy" in a nominally Byzantine parish in Cleveland, then you have given me good reason to fear, and perhaps to weep, for my family, friends and colleagues in the Orthodox Church.
For all the talk about having or not having @#$%$, it seems to me that it is the two of you who need to grow up and be men.
Theophilos [/quote]
Theophilos,
I think that the salient point of the two posters is where does this all stop. When a parish and/or eparchy continually deviates from Tradition time after time, year after year, decade after decade, what's to preclude crazy things like polka masses, guitar masses, etc. from occurring. If you were to tell a Roman Catholic in 1950 that all these things would be occurring 20-50 years later, they would have thought you were exaggerating as well, but my friend it did happen and continues to happen. Will it happen here, no one knows, but there needs to people on guard to prevent it from happening. I've felt like the voice in the wilderness for many years, and it doesn't look like it is going to change unfortunately. The only thing I've ever seen Slavipodvizhnik and Etnick be guilty of is defending Tradition and the Faith.
:)
Monomakh
Theophilos replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256039#Post256039
The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.
Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.
Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).
Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.
I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.
It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.
In Christ,
Theophilos
Etnick replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256044#Post256044
[quote=Theophilos]The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.
Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.
Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).
Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.
I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.
It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.
In Christ,
Theophilos [/quote]
My whole point is how can the RDL be defended? There is absolutely NO excuse or reason for inclusive language in the Divine Liturgy. I won't even comment on the horrid music.
The Ruthenian Liturgy wasn't complete to begin with. I know of only one parish in my area that used the Red Book. That was tossed in the bonfire for them with the RDL. The Ruthenian liturgy needed fixing, not further destruction with needless revisions.
I wonder what the Patriarch and the rest of the Orthodox bishops think of the RDL. I wonder if any of them have been hospitalized from laughing so hard after reading it. How are they to take Orthodox/Catholic relations seriously if the Byzantine won't do it themselves.
As far as fairness on this forum, it's well known that the Administrator doesn't like the RDL. I'm not going to say that he's biased, so draw your own conclusion.
I think that some people here are just too thin skinned for lively debate. :D
Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256047#Post256047
[quote=Theophilos]The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.
Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.
Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).
Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.
I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.
It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.
In Christ,
Theophilos [/quote]
Theophilos,
It's no secret that I'm not a fan of the RDL, so for what's it worth, I think that the administrators on all of these forums do a good job and I personally don't envy their job at all, I wouldn't want to be a moderator at all, it's not easy. I'm pleased that this forum exists and that these topcis can be discussed. I've had my share of retractions and apologies, and also had posts that I didn't get a chance to retract or explain because they were just flat out deleted. Did I agree with it, not every time, but I respect the moderators' decision and move on. If I want to express the things that were delected than I need to start my own board (I'm not going to that, see my note about a moderator above). My Indians are going to play the Red Sox in ALCS tomorrow. If we were to put Indians and Red Sox fans together in the same room, every close call would be viewed as bias towards one team when the call doesn't go our way. I think that its human nature to think that the umpi!
res, referees, moderators, etc. are out to get us, when 99 out of 100 they are not.
In the spirit of civil discussion, in my last post I asked where does all of these revisions end my friend? Once again, a Roman Catholic in 1950 would never have forseen what was to come in the next 50 years of their church. So while some things may seem like chicken little or exagerrations, please realize that crazier things have happened in our own lifetimes even. If you're serious about an academic discussion, let's do just.
:grin:
Monomakh
Father Anthony replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256082#Post256082
This thread is now closed with the above post. All posts after midnight on this date have been deleted. The thread went from actually having some good point being finally made by both sides of the issue to having all sorts of things irrelevant being introduced to it which have nothing to do with the subject of the thread.
I strongly suggest that in the future, points dealing only with the topic be discussed and that you leave the outside materials for other sections.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
As usual, in his heavier handed moderation style, Fr Anthony has chosen to excise the lengthy posts shown above for his own reasons after waiting many days after this thread started to wander off track.
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=255770#Post255770
[quote=Dr John]
Let us please get beyond the 'externals' and focus on the ESSENTIAL elements of our Church: prayer, fasting, liturgy and 'koinotis' (=community) that lead us to salvation.
Blessings to ALL!
Dr John [/quote]
I agree, yet another reason why the full and official Ruthenian Rescension should be practiced and all this nonsense of the RDL should never have happened. Instead prayer, fasting, and I would add evangelization and renewal of our Orthodox roots should be focused on. + Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict both have called us to this, why don't we listen?
Monomakh
Theophilos replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=255991#Post255991
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Just wondering when the moderator is going to step in and admonish those posters who are taking patently uncharitable personal jabs at defenders of the RDL? To wit:
[quote]I am glad that you like the changes. More power to you my friend. My local RC parish has a Polka Mass a few times a year. You should come, you'd probably like that as well! [/quote] (Slavipodvizhnik, post 255949)
[quote]If you REALLY like the changes of the RDL, go back and read the post Stephanie Kotyuh made a few up from here. You might want to join that parish! [/quote] (Etnick, post 255953)
Are these kinds of comments really necessary? If so, perhaps I can offer an observation along these very lines:
If the two of you think the RDL, for all its shortcomings, is akin to a polka mass or a "guitar liturgy" in a nominally Byzantine parish in Cleveland, then you have given me good reason to fear, and perhaps to weep, for my family, friends and colleagues in the Orthodox Church.
For all the talk about having or not having @#$%$, it seems to me that it is the two of you need to grow up and be men.
Theophilos
Diak replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256000#Post256000
It has gone both ways, Theophilos, which can be pointed out - but which would help nothing. At least there is somewhere to discuss such things, "rough around the edges" though it may be.
Try sitting in on a discussion of evolution in public school curricula in Kansas, or any number of scientific or political controversies. In spite of all this is quite civil, I can assure you.
Etnick replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256012#Post256012
[quote=lcanthony]As author of this thread I had hoped for more than the usual body slamming of our Liturgy. If you want to split hairs I suspect our ancestors of centuries past would take umbrage with any version of the Divine Liturgy used in the last 200 years. THe Divine Liturgy is a living organism, always changing as societies and cultures change. If you want to be Orthodox, go ahead and be Orthodox. I've been there and done that. They go through their changes, Russian, Greek, OCA, Old Rite, new calendar, etc. They certainly aren't one big happy family. What is the goal of this fight other than the sake of a unhealthy dose of self righteousness? [/quote]
Theophilos, What were you saying about charity? :confused:
Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256038#Post256038
[quote=Theophilos]
[quote]I am glad that you like the changes. More power to you my friend. My local RC parish has a Polka Mass a few times a year. You should come, you'd probably like that as well! [/quote] (Slavipodvizhnik, post 255949)
[quote]If you REALLY like the changes of the RDL, go back and read the post Stephanie Kotyuh made a few up from here. You might want to join that parish! [/quote] (Etnick, post 255953)
Are these kinds of comments really necessary? If so, perhaps I can offer an observation along these very lines:
If the two of you think the RDL, for all its shortcomings, is akin to a polka mass or a "guitar liturgy" in a nominally Byzantine parish in Cleveland, then you have given me good reason to fear, and perhaps to weep, for my family, friends and colleagues in the Orthodox Church.
For all the talk about having or not having @#$%$, it seems to me that it is the two of you who need to grow up and be men.
Theophilos [/quote]
Theophilos,
I think that the salient point of the two posters is where does this all stop. When a parish and/or eparchy continually deviates from Tradition time after time, year after year, decade after decade, what's to preclude crazy things like polka masses, guitar masses, etc. from occurring. If you were to tell a Roman Catholic in 1950 that all these things would be occurring 20-50 years later, they would have thought you were exaggerating as well, but my friend it did happen and continues to happen. Will it happen here, no one knows, but there needs to people on guard to prevent it from happening. I've felt like the voice in the wilderness for many years, and it doesn't look like it is going to change unfortunately. The only thing I've ever seen Slavipodvizhnik and Etnick be guilty of is defending Tradition and the Faith.
:)
Monomakh
Theophilos replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256039#Post256039
The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.
Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.
Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).
Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.
I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.
It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.
In Christ,
Theophilos
Etnick replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256044#Post256044
[quote=Theophilos]The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.
Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.
Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).
Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.
I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.
It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.
In Christ,
Theophilos [/quote]
My whole point is how can the RDL be defended? There is absolutely NO excuse or reason for inclusive language in the Divine Liturgy. I won't even comment on the horrid music.
The Ruthenian Liturgy wasn't complete to begin with. I know of only one parish in my area that used the Red Book. That was tossed in the bonfire for them with the RDL. The Ruthenian liturgy needed fixing, not further destruction with needless revisions.
I wonder what the Patriarch and the rest of the Orthodox bishops think of the RDL. I wonder if any of them have been hospitalized from laughing so hard after reading it. How are they to take Orthodox/Catholic relations seriously if the Byzantine won't do it themselves.
As far as fairness on this forum, it's well known that the Administrator doesn't like the RDL. I'm not going to say that he's biased, so draw your own conclusion.
I think that some people here are just too thin skinned for lively debate. :D
Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256047#Post256047
[quote=Theophilos]The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.
Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.
Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).
Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.
I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.
It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.
In Christ,
Theophilos [/quote]
Theophilos,
It's no secret that I'm not a fan of the RDL, so for what's it worth, I think that the administrators on all of these forums do a good job and I personally don't envy their job at all, I wouldn't want to be a moderator at all, it's not easy. I'm pleased that this forum exists and that these topcis can be discussed. I've had my share of retractions and apologies, and also had posts that I didn't get a chance to retract or explain because they were just flat out deleted. Did I agree with it, not every time, but I respect the moderators' decision and move on. If I want to express the things that were delected than I need to start my own board (I'm not going to that, see my note about a moderator above). My Indians are going to play the Red Sox in ALCS tomorrow. If we were to put Indians and Red Sox fans together in the same room, every close call would be viewed as bias towards one team when the call doesn't go our way. I think that its human nature to think that the umpi!
res, referees, moderators, etc. are out to get us, when 99 out of 100 they are not.
In the spirit of civil discussion, in my last post I asked where does all of these revisions end my friend? Once again, a Roman Catholic in 1950 would never have forseen what was to come in the next 50 years of their church. So while some things may seem like chicken little or exagerrations, please realize that crazier things have happened in our own lifetimes even. If you're serious about an academic discussion, let's do just.
:grin:
Monomakh
Father Anthony replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256082#Post256082
This thread is now closed with the above post. All posts after midnight on this date have been deleted. The thread went from actually having some good point being finally made by both sides of the issue to having all sorts of things irrelevant being introduced to it which have nothing to do with the subject of the thread.
I strongly suggest that in the future, points dealing only with the topic be discussed and that you leave the outside materials for other sections.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
As usual, in his heavier handed moderation style, Fr Anthony has chosen to excise the lengthy posts shown above for his own reasons after waiting many days after this thread started to wander off track.
Sunday, October 07, 2007
Musings about the Liturguical changes
Keep in mind that the promulgation and the changes with it are entirely an act of our hierarchs who drove the project, received approval from Rome, and mandated it. While various individuals have had a hand in the translations, the choices of rubrics to follow, and other decisions, the ultimate decision squarely rests with our hierarchy, period. If the Hierarchs had disagreements with those whom they had solicited input, I would gather the Hierarchs made the final call.
We, the faithful are left with a predicament, do we stay faithful, obedient yet voiceless about the changes and accept what our hierarchs have promulgated, without questioning? Do we leave our heritage for another church, which may have other problems, but with relatively intact liturgy? Or do we stay and question our bishops through letters, discussion and other means, making our voices heard?
If we choose to leave, our voices will have less impact on the Hierarchy, unless in large enough numbers, which surely would mean the demise of the Ruthenian Church in America. Do we love the Divine Liturgy or do we love our parishes (and our history)? We can love both only if we stay.
If we choose to stay, but just follow along without voicing displeasure with the translation, we are essentially ratifying their decision, whether we agree with the decisions or not. Again though we must ask ourselves, are we there for the Divine Liturgy or the parish family?
This brings us to choice number three, to stay and to voice displeasure with translation and rubrics, that are less in line with the other Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, in a hope of guiding our church through this troubled period.
I say this after having spent an wonderful, introspective weekend at Holy Resurrection Monastery where all the litanies are sung, the translations are more "liturgical" (no P.C. stuff, thank you). While they (HRM) are now under the omophor of the Romanian Catholic Eparchy, I still do feel a connection with them as a Rusyn Catholic in the Van Nuys Eparchy since they had a similar challenge before them a few years ago prior to the changes in the Divine Liturgy.
Throughout all this, I have deliberately not mentioned the music, Which I do find is a POSITIVE change from the Hierarchical mandate of the 1965 books wherein the music settings were grossly simplified (like so much in America). While much has been written debating the settings of the music, many of those issues have boiled down to the translation being somewhat less than poetic and not fitting to anything but the simplified forms of the melodies.
As to some of the claims that not all liturgies have been restored, the service of Matins has been restored so far as Music and text.
Again just as with Vespers, Matins and the Hours, it remains for our Hierarchs to lead with proper parochial instructions to only use vespers un the evenings and restore Matins on Sunday mornings. Perhaps at times, we all suffer from the common malady of the modern computer literate generation in desiring a[i]ll things[/i] to be instant. The positive changes to the Divine Liturgy will come, but at the same human pace that change has always come through the millenia, slowly.
Quite literally, my worthless opinion,
Steve
We, the faithful are left with a predicament, do we stay faithful, obedient yet voiceless about the changes and accept what our hierarchs have promulgated, without questioning? Do we leave our heritage for another church, which may have other problems, but with relatively intact liturgy? Or do we stay and question our bishops through letters, discussion and other means, making our voices heard?
If we choose to leave, our voices will have less impact on the Hierarchy, unless in large enough numbers, which surely would mean the demise of the Ruthenian Church in America. Do we love the Divine Liturgy or do we love our parishes (and our history)? We can love both only if we stay.
If we choose to stay, but just follow along without voicing displeasure with the translation, we are essentially ratifying their decision, whether we agree with the decisions or not. Again though we must ask ourselves, are we there for the Divine Liturgy or the parish family?
This brings us to choice number three, to stay and to voice displeasure with translation and rubrics, that are less in line with the other Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, in a hope of guiding our church through this troubled period.
I say this after having spent an wonderful, introspective weekend at Holy Resurrection Monastery where all the litanies are sung, the translations are more "liturgical" (no P.C. stuff, thank you). While they (HRM) are now under the omophor of the Romanian Catholic Eparchy, I still do feel a connection with them as a Rusyn Catholic in the Van Nuys Eparchy since they had a similar challenge before them a few years ago prior to the changes in the Divine Liturgy.
Throughout all this, I have deliberately not mentioned the music, Which I do find is a POSITIVE change from the Hierarchical mandate of the 1965 books wherein the music settings were grossly simplified (like so much in America). While much has been written debating the settings of the music, many of those issues have boiled down to the translation being somewhat less than poetic and not fitting to anything but the simplified forms of the melodies.
As to some of the claims that not all liturgies have been restored, the service of Matins has been restored so far as Music and text.
Again just as with Vespers, Matins and the Hours, it remains for our Hierarchs to lead with proper parochial instructions to only use vespers un the evenings and restore Matins on Sunday mornings. Perhaps at times, we all suffer from the common malady of the modern computer literate generation in desiring a[i]ll things[/i] to be instant. The positive changes to the Divine Liturgy will come, but at the same human pace that change has always come through the millenia, slowly.
Quite literally, my worthless opinion,
Steve
Wednesday, August 15, 2007
The Cradle vs Convert issue still survives...
[quote]"I believe that Steve is incorrect in what he is stating here. All voices have been welcomed. Yet we have had some new Byzantines indicate that their opinions should be more valued than those with years of experience in various ministries (and that is wrong)."[/quote]
Welcomed so long as they are in line with the "cradle" view. Which was the point I was trying to make; that in our parishes and other means of interaction we subtly convey an attitude that unless everything they believe is 100%"cradle" then they are not "nash", our people.
A few examples by doing a simple search:
------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: Rufinus
Overall, I firmly disagree with what the moderator has written. I think that the Bishops have made the right decisions. I think that the Cantor Institute is right on track.
Just curious.
Where are you a cantor? What experience do you have cantoring?
Monomakh
-----------------------------------------------------
Rufinus,
You may be new to internet fora. Topics tend to occasionally drift, some more than others. Your review of the broadcast could help bring us back 'on topic'. ;\)
As for this being another 'cry room', are you surprised? The BCC isn't my Church, but I'm nearly brought to tears by what is being done to it by its leaders. I can't begin to imagine what it's like for those who have lived their entire lives in this Church. {BTW, you still haven't answered the question as to whether you are 'cradle' or 'convert'. Help keep things on topic and reply not here, but in the thread where the question was first asked. }
(posted by Kobzar)
--------------------------------------------------
It is also interesting that most of those involved with this reformation and those in favor of the RDL either are not originally Byzantine Catholic or Carpatho Rusyn (for the most part, there are those in traverse in favor...)
I see that Prof. Thompson is a registered user on this board, did he happen to vote? There is a definite vote yes...
(posted by Rusyn31)
-----------------------------------------------------
Again, seems to me to be a "Craddle vs. Convert" issue.
Craddle Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have a big problem with the new music. Converts don't have a problem with the new music probably because they never experienced the Church Slavonic Prostopinije liturgies.
Ungcsertezs
-----------------------------------------------
Welcomed so long as they are in line with the "cradle" view. Which was the point I was trying to make; that in our parishes and other means of interaction we subtly convey an attitude that unless everything they believe is 100%"cradle" then they are not "nash", our people.
A few examples by doing a simple search:
------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: Rufinus
Overall, I firmly disagree with what the moderator has written. I think that the Bishops have made the right decisions. I think that the Cantor Institute is right on track.
Just curious.
Where are you a cantor? What experience do you have cantoring?
Monomakh
-----------------------------------------------------
Rufinus,
You may be new to internet fora. Topics tend to occasionally drift, some more than others. Your review of the broadcast could help bring us back 'on topic'. ;\)
As for this being another 'cry room', are you surprised? The BCC isn't my Church, but I'm nearly brought to tears by what is being done to it by its leaders. I can't begin to imagine what it's like for those who have lived their entire lives in this Church. {BTW, you still haven't answered the question as to whether you are 'cradle' or 'convert'. Help keep things on topic and reply not here, but in the thread where the question was first asked. }
(posted by Kobzar)
--------------------------------------------------
It is also interesting that most of those involved with this reformation and those in favor of the RDL either are not originally Byzantine Catholic or Carpatho Rusyn (for the most part, there are those in traverse in favor...)
I see that Prof. Thompson is a registered user on this board, did he happen to vote? There is a definite vote yes...
(posted by Rusyn31)
-----------------------------------------------------
Again, seems to me to be a "Craddle vs. Convert" issue.
Craddle Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have a big problem with the new music. Converts don't have a problem with the new music probably because they never experienced the Church Slavonic Prostopinije liturgies.
Ungcsertezs
-----------------------------------------------
Monday, August 13, 2007
I Know, Enough about Byzcath!!!!!
Yes but, it seems Fr. Anthony, the tireless vigilant moderator for truth and justice stikes again...Witness the following, my message to Fr Anthony:
Fr Anthony,
I am puzzled and disturbed by your sense of reasoning regarding Rufinus and this thread. The fact that Rufinus did not explicitly, overtly ,immediately, capitulate to your demand for a retraction based on your interpretation of his transgression, and the subsequent banning of him as a poster on Byzcath seems to remind me of a Gospel reading we just heard about forgiveness. Lately there seems to be little forgiveness shown toward those who are in favor of the RDL while the onslaught of negative commentary against the RDL continues unabated and unchecked.
While I see that you are Orthodox, you do come across as strictly authoritarian and somewhat uncompromising in your charity towards certain views.
Please read this carefully, as I do not wish to be banned based upon a purely PRIVATE letter to you which would be most uncharitable given the nature of private communications. I have often wondered why there is only one moderator,( you), of the RDL forum, and SEVERAL moderators of all other fora on this board.
To those of us observing the forum at Byzcath, it appears that you are being arbitrary in your exercise of power.
The pertinent posts which drew my attention to this matter:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U-C,
You can't accept the support of non-cradles and give them the right to speak when they agree with you and then tell non-cradles who disagree with you they have no right to comment. How long does one have to be a member of a particular Church before they have a right to speak? 10 years? 20 years? Never because they aren't cradles?
Fr. Deacon Lance
Rufinus,
Then that will be accepted as a retraction. I have received numerous complaints today over this "poor choice" of words in what seemed to be a personal attack on a poster. I allow free discussion as long as the forum rules of charity are followed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posting to this thread may resume
Fr. Anthony:
I in no way meant to attack anyone. I meant only that I shall not engage in an ad-hominen argument. Period. What astounds me is just as you posted your reply just such an attempt was made. This is what I meant by an attempt at "personal assessment." I meant, I will not permit an ad-hominen argument to develop. Period. But you are right. My words do read with a generality that has overtones that simply do not exist. Please retract the statement.
Rufinus
Rufinus,
You are hereby given an indefinite suspension until such point as you are willing to retract. You have been known for playing these word games and until such time as you retract and act in the proper decorum, you will be outside looking in. There is nothing "ad-hominen" about the above post.
This thread is now closed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Fr Anthony,
I am puzzled and disturbed by your sense of reasoning regarding Rufinus and this thread. The fact that Rufinus did not explicitly, overtly ,immediately, capitulate to your demand for a retraction based on your interpretation of his transgression, and the subsequent banning of him as a poster on Byzcath seems to remind me of a Gospel reading we just heard about forgiveness. Lately there seems to be little forgiveness shown toward those who are in favor of the RDL while the onslaught of negative commentary against the RDL continues unabated and unchecked.
While I see that you are Orthodox, you do come across as strictly authoritarian and somewhat uncompromising in your charity towards certain views.
Please read this carefully, as I do not wish to be banned based upon a purely PRIVATE letter to you which would be most uncharitable given the nature of private communications. I have often wondered why there is only one moderator,( you), of the RDL forum, and SEVERAL moderators of all other fora on this board.
To those of us observing the forum at Byzcath, it appears that you are being arbitrary in your exercise of power.
The pertinent posts which drew my attention to this matter:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U-C,
You can't accept the support of non-cradles and give them the right to speak when they agree with you and then tell non-cradles who disagree with you they have no right to comment. How long does one have to be a member of a particular Church before they have a right to speak? 10 years? 20 years? Never because they aren't cradles?
Fr. Deacon Lance
Rufinus,
Then that will be accepted as a retraction. I have received numerous complaints today over this "poor choice" of words in what seemed to be a personal attack on a poster. I allow free discussion as long as the forum rules of charity are followed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posting to this thread may resume
Fr. Anthony:
I in no way meant to attack anyone. I meant only that I shall not engage in an ad-hominen argument. Period. What astounds me is just as you posted your reply just such an attempt was made. This is what I meant by an attempt at "personal assessment." I meant, I will not permit an ad-hominen argument to develop. Period. But you are right. My words do read with a generality that has overtones that simply do not exist. Please retract the statement.
Rufinus
Rufinus,
You are hereby given an indefinite suspension until such point as you are willing to retract. You have been known for playing these word games and until such time as you retract and act in the proper decorum, you will be outside looking in. There is nothing "ad-hominen" about the above post.
This thread is now closed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Saturday, August 11, 2007
Another Yahoo group I'm off of
Well, it seems too trite to have even been worth such a fuss.
The moderator/owner of Byzantine Catholics Speak has decided that my presence is no longer desired in her sandbox. her final email to me is a bit confused:
Dear Steve,
A few moments after your peevish withdrawl, I got the message at the end of my note here, from Seglinde.
I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company.
I'll keep you and kathielee and hermit[man] in my prayers.
Thanks again for you contributions to the list...those things of real substance I mean. When you speak substantively, you are a real gem of a participant. Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all.
You are surely welcome back at any time but not to fly into a fit of peeve every time your sensitivities get tweaked.
Mary
Strange thing is, I had only posted exactly four messages on that group prior to this: My last message having been a rebuke over the tone of the posts. Specifically thus:
"Hows about changing the subject line too, since the thread has slid father than father's original slide?
Steve,
(Unworthy lurker) "
When things got heated between Mary (owner/moderator) and another member, Hermit, I posted the following rebuke:
"WOW!!!! This email list is becoming a replica of Byzcath.org ,(including the threats to ban/moderate members), now that the forum on Byzcath has quieted down to a mere whisper lately,
Time to turn off the email feed and find some peace and quiet.
Steve
Mary Lanser wrote:
It is prideful to come into an area of the Church of which you have little knowledge and refuse to listen long enough to dispel ignorance.
It is also prideful to come among strangers and take over.
One more such outburst and I will put you on moderation till you can learn a little self control...no...a LOT of self control.
Mary
On 8/10/07, *Hermit* <hermitary302@yahoo.com
St. Basil said: "To be proud is sometimes virtuous. To have pride
is a vice always. It is a killer vice. It is a big, bad major
slayer! Pride leads the parade of capital sins and always wants to
be first. Humility seeks the least or nothing. "
My reply to Mary, thus ending our rather short exchange of words, and my involvement from the beginning of her group was such:
Mary,
While my support is well appreciated, I gather it wasn't appreciated well enough to retain membership on the group.
In another email you wrote:
"I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company."...."Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all. "
That comes across as "snitty" in it's own respect. Either you you do or you don't respect my views. period. I gather that you don't really respect my views because you place more weight on a few "snitty" remarks over anything substantive that I have posted.
I pray that you will find peace in whatever church you find yourself in. I myself don't like the revision of the RDL however I will remain faithful to the church of my family for so many generations before me, good bishop or bad bishops, good priests or bad priests, good cantors or bad cantors.
I regret our parting of ways was not as peaceful as one would hope, but it is a parting nonetheless.
In Christ,
Steve
So, a learning lesson to all: When it's somebody else's sandbox you've been invited to play in, they are always right even when they are totally wrong. Such is life. Mary started her group out of frustration and anger and her dealings with people there are still colored by that same anger. May Mary find peace in her search for the perfect church which squares with her views.
The moderator/owner of Byzantine Catholics Speak has decided that my presence is no longer desired in her sandbox. her final email to me is a bit confused:
Dear Steve,
A few moments after your peevish withdrawl, I got the message at the end of my note here, from Seglinde.
I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company.
I'll keep you and kathielee and hermit[man] in my prayers.
Thanks again for you contributions to the list...those things of real substance I mean. When you speak substantively, you are a real gem of a participant. Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all.
You are surely welcome back at any time but not to fly into a fit of peeve every time your sensitivities get tweaked.
Mary
Strange thing is, I had only posted exactly four messages on that group prior to this: My last message having been a rebuke over the tone of the posts. Specifically thus:
"Hows about changing the subject line too, since the thread has slid father than father's original slide?
Steve,
(Unworthy lurker) "
When things got heated between Mary (owner/moderator) and another member, Hermit, I posted the following rebuke:
"WOW!!!! This email list is becoming a replica of Byzcath.org ,(including the threats to ban/moderate members), now that the forum on Byzcath has quieted down to a mere whisper lately,
Time to turn off the email feed and find some peace and quiet.
Steve
Mary Lanser wrote:
It is prideful to come into an area of the Church of which you have little knowledge and refuse to listen long enough to dispel ignorance.
It is also prideful to come among strangers and take over.
One more such outburst and I will put you on moderation till you can learn a little self control...no...a LOT of self control.
Mary
On 8/10/07, *Hermit* <hermitary302@yahoo.com
St. Basil said: "To be proud is sometimes virtuous. To have pride
is a vice always. It is a killer vice. It is a big, bad major
slayer! Pride leads the parade of capital sins and always wants to
be first. Humility seeks the least or nothing. "
My reply to Mary, thus ending our rather short exchange of words, and my involvement from the beginning of her group was such:
Mary,
While my support is well appreciated, I gather it wasn't appreciated well enough to retain membership on the group.
In another email you wrote:
"I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company."...."Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all. "
That comes across as "snitty" in it's own respect. Either you you do or you don't respect my views. period. I gather that you don't really respect my views because you place more weight on a few "snitty" remarks over anything substantive that I have posted.
I pray that you will find peace in whatever church you find yourself in. I myself don't like the revision of the RDL however I will remain faithful to the church of my family for so many generations before me, good bishop or bad bishops, good priests or bad priests, good cantors or bad cantors.
I regret our parting of ways was not as peaceful as one would hope, but it is a parting nonetheless.
In Christ,
Steve
So, a learning lesson to all: When it's somebody else's sandbox you've been invited to play in, they are always right even when they are totally wrong. Such is life. Mary started her group out of frustration and anger and her dealings with people there are still colored by that same anger. May Mary find peace in her search for the perfect church which squares with her views.
Wednesday, June 27, 2007
Monday, April 16, 2007
Into my twighlight of byzcath.org
Christos Anesti!
Fr. Anthony,
You posted further down:
"Father Serge and ByzanTN, Christ is Risen!
Somehow you have already managed to steer this thread off topic. Neither of your posts has anything to do with the question asked in the opening post. ...."
I don't see how ByzanTN's post particularly steered this thread off topic. However, the prior reference to camels by Fr Serge sure did!!! Ed Hash's post didn't help either.
Just curious....
It seems that since the whole subject of the RDL is contentous, those who have stayed on to debate it could probably use a little humor since the people who have the answers have apparently stopped visiting this board due to the lopsided playing field.
Myself, I have stopped posting here because of the views of several strong posters (including the Admin). I only watch now with sadness at all the venom spewed forth in these posts regarding the tragic experiment called the RDL. If we as a church (BCC) are not strong enough to handle such changes, then perhaps we will slowly, but unstoppably die away into history, as a footnote to the whole of church history. It does not make it any less uncomfortable for those of us who quietly fight to preserve our heritage and church.
In a way we're like the early Christians, folly to the Greeks, and a conundrum to the Jews. Just substitute Roman Catholic and Orthodox and in the middle you have us; Greek Catholics. At times it seems we are reviled and ostracised by both Catholics and Orthodox for wanting to be both.
Perhaps, it too is time I removed by bookmark to Byzcath.org and let it go...
Steve
Fr. Anthony,
You posted further down:
"Father Serge and ByzanTN, Christ is Risen!
Somehow you have already managed to steer this thread off topic. Neither of your posts has anything to do with the question asked in the opening post. ...."
I don't see how ByzanTN's post particularly steered this thread off topic. However, the prior reference to camels by Fr Serge sure did!!! Ed Hash's post didn't help either.
Just curious....
It seems that since the whole subject of the RDL is contentous, those who have stayed on to debate it could probably use a little humor since the people who have the answers have apparently stopped visiting this board due to the lopsided playing field.
Myself, I have stopped posting here because of the views of several strong posters (including the Admin). I only watch now with sadness at all the venom spewed forth in these posts regarding the tragic experiment called the RDL. If we as a church (BCC) are not strong enough to handle such changes, then perhaps we will slowly, but unstoppably die away into history, as a footnote to the whole of church history. It does not make it any less uncomfortable for those of us who quietly fight to preserve our heritage and church.
In a way we're like the early Christians, folly to the Greeks, and a conundrum to the Jews. Just substitute Roman Catholic and Orthodox and in the middle you have us; Greek Catholics. At times it seems we are reviled and ostracised by both Catholics and Orthodox for wanting to be both.
Perhaps, it too is time I removed by bookmark to Byzcath.org and let it go...
Steve
Wednesday, March 21, 2007
My response to Monomakh, in case byzcath deletes it...
Monomakh,
I haven't searched the archives yet. Does your own parish, If BCC, serve Matins? How many OCA parishes serve matins? How many ACROD parishes? The problem is more widespread than just the BCC.
As to on verses of the antiphons.....sigh.... I had hoped that there would be restoration of the full antiphons. Sadly in our church's history there has bee one verse of the antiphons for far too long. The last 100 years seems to be too far back in our church's history to find REGULARLY sung multiple verses of the antiphons. Yes maybe 1% of our parishes did sing all three antiphons with all three verses on a REGULAR basis.
Too often we here seem to be like the three blind men describing an elephant based upon the limited information we can gather by what we experience. To extrapolate our parish experience to all the Metropolia will always be incomplete. Some parishes celebrate a fuller cycle of liturgical services than do others. This seems more a function of the priests (and to some small extent the laity) in the individual parishes. Would that our Bishops mandate better consistency in the celebration of Liturgies throughout our Eparchies!!! {oh wait, they did and many rebelled!!!} Would that our Bishops followed the Orthodox celebration of the liturgical cycle. Would that all BCC's wish for such a renewal!
To call this restoration akin to the "Democratic People's Republic" of North Korea is somewhat misleading and extreme. Perhaps you could cite when in our history as a church the people (laity) have ever had so much say in how the liturgy is celebrated?
This, my unworthy $.0002 opinion,
Steve
I haven't searched the archives yet. Does your own parish, If BCC, serve Matins? How many OCA parishes serve matins? How many ACROD parishes? The problem is more widespread than just the BCC.
As to on verses of the antiphons.....sigh.... I had hoped that there would be restoration of the full antiphons. Sadly in our church's history there has bee one verse of the antiphons for far too long. The last 100 years seems to be too far back in our church's history to find REGULARLY sung multiple verses of the antiphons. Yes maybe 1% of our parishes did sing all three antiphons with all three verses on a REGULAR basis.
Too often we here seem to be like the three blind men describing an elephant based upon the limited information we can gather by what we experience. To extrapolate our parish experience to all the Metropolia will always be incomplete. Some parishes celebrate a fuller cycle of liturgical services than do others. This seems more a function of the priests (and to some small extent the laity) in the individual parishes. Would that our Bishops mandate better consistency in the celebration of Liturgies throughout our Eparchies!!! {oh wait, they did and many rebelled!!!} Would that our Bishops followed the Orthodox celebration of the liturgical cycle. Would that all BCC's wish for such a renewal!
To call this restoration akin to the "Democratic People's Republic" of North Korea is somewhat misleading and extreme. Perhaps you could cite when in our history as a church the people (laity) have ever had so much say in how the liturgy is celebrated?
This, my unworthy $.0002 opinion,
Steve
more brotherly love from Byzcath.org.....
A poster at byzcath.org "Etnick" wrote this recently,
"Can you join me for vespers this Saturday? Oh! I forgot! Vespers is only celebrated in 1% of BCC churches. (I was being generous with 1%) Good luck with watered down Byzantine Liturgy!"
Enough with this BS posturing about watered down liturgies!!! Geeeez! Does byzcath.org endorse such statements? It seems so, since by and large there is a blatant bias regarding allowing such posts while suppressing posts which favor any of the revisions or opinions supporting them. There are most likely more than 1% of BCC parishes that REGULARLY celebrate vespers. Not every Orthodox parish is a model of perfection compared to each BCC parish. Etnick seems to be quite insulated in his commentary toward the BCC on byzcath.org which he admits to having left for the Orthodox Church. Are we remaining BCC's to stand by idly with this sort of attack? NO! If we dislike the changes to the Liturgy we must remain BCC! If we all run away from our parishes all we will succeed in doing is hastening the collapse of the Byzantine Cathollic Church. If we truly love our church we should stick to it and pray that our Bishops will undertake to correct some of the mistakes (and the misgivings) in regard to the recent revision of our Divine Liturgy. Overall, their hearts are in the right place, it was more the manner in which the revision was presented (or not represented) to the laity which caused such a problem.
For a balanced, moderated board(Byzcath.org) , this seems to be the usual tone of lately of the more strident posters who have agendas and are seeming allowed free reign to post such diatribes. So much for balance and Christian charity on byzcath.org!....
"Can you join me for vespers this Saturday? Oh! I forgot! Vespers is only celebrated in 1% of BCC churches. (I was being generous with 1%) Good luck with watered down Byzantine Liturgy!"
Enough with this BS posturing about watered down liturgies!!! Geeeez! Does byzcath.org endorse such statements? It seems so, since by and large there is a blatant bias regarding allowing such posts while suppressing posts which favor any of the revisions or opinions supporting them. There are most likely more than 1% of BCC parishes that REGULARLY celebrate vespers. Not every Orthodox parish is a model of perfection compared to each BCC parish. Etnick seems to be quite insulated in his commentary toward the BCC on byzcath.org which he admits to having left for the Orthodox Church. Are we remaining BCC's to stand by idly with this sort of attack? NO! If we dislike the changes to the Liturgy we must remain BCC! If we all run away from our parishes all we will succeed in doing is hastening the collapse of the Byzantine Cathollic Church. If we truly love our church we should stick to it and pray that our Bishops will undertake to correct some of the mistakes (and the misgivings) in regard to the recent revision of our Divine Liturgy. Overall, their hearts are in the right place, it was more the manner in which the revision was presented (or not represented) to the laity which caused such a problem.
For a balanced, moderated board(Byzcath.org) , this seems to be the usual tone of lately of the more strident posters who have agendas and are seeming allowed free reign to post such diatribes. So much for balance and Christian charity on byzcath.org!....
Tuesday, March 13, 2007
A Heartfelt Post on ByzCath.org
"Brethren in Risen Christ, our Life and Saviour,
Invited in April 2005 by a noble sister in Christ, I joined this forum, where I found a fine place for expressing in writing a few thoughts, prayers as well.
I have no idea how, but this forum, the only where I post sometimes, transformed slowly and I could not define it how is now. But it is not more that fine place.
However, I do know that valuable members began to visit it more rare, being bittered by certain aspects such as adversity between Catholic and Orthodox, or being bittered by the discussions upon the revised Divine Liturgy etc. etc.
Members who contributed with their love to this forum.
Therefore, I, a nothingness, dare to remind you all these words:
Quote:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.
(John 13, 34-35, NIV)
As you already know, love is a commandment, not an option. Even if this board is a virtual one, we must care of every word, for we will answer before our Master for every word.
We all need the mercy of God.
I hope that this forum will promote the unity between the Sisters Churches, and foremost of all will testify the Risen Christ.
Are we disciples of Lord Jesus Christ?
Remembering now a gentle Saint, Saint Isaac the Syrian, I say with all heart:
May God fill your souls with Eternal Life! Amen & Amin!
In Risen Christ <><
Brother Marian+"
I could not have said it any better!!!!
Marian is seeing the forum from the eyes of a non-American( Eastern European) perspective. We have become so accustomed to venting our feelings about the changes in the Pittsburgh Metropolia that we forget how our brethren around the world see us.
Invited in April 2005 by a noble sister in Christ, I joined this forum, where I found a fine place for expressing in writing a few thoughts, prayers as well.
I have no idea how, but this forum, the only where I post sometimes, transformed slowly and I could not define it how is now. But it is not more that fine place.
However, I do know that valuable members began to visit it more rare, being bittered by certain aspects such as adversity between Catholic and Orthodox, or being bittered by the discussions upon the revised Divine Liturgy etc. etc.
Members who contributed with their love to this forum.
Therefore, I, a nothingness, dare to remind you all these words:
Quote:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.
(John 13, 34-35, NIV)
As you already know, love is a commandment, not an option. Even if this board is a virtual one, we must care of every word, for we will answer before our Master for every word.
We all need the mercy of God.
I hope that this forum will promote the unity between the Sisters Churches, and foremost of all will testify the Risen Christ.
Are we disciples of Lord Jesus Christ?
Remembering now a gentle Saint, Saint Isaac the Syrian, I say with all heart:
May God fill your souls with Eternal Life! Amen & Amin!
In Risen Christ <><
Brother Marian+"
I could not have said it any better!!!!
Marian is seeing the forum from the eyes of a non-American( Eastern European) perspective. We have become so accustomed to venting our feelings about the changes in the Pittsburgh Metropolia that we forget how our brethren around the world see us.
Wednesday, March 07, 2007
Old Church Slavonic, a lost language......almost
Slowly, it seems, there is an immutable force driving a noble church language into the realm of a truly dead language. This force is actually the force of many individuals who actively and passively do not care for this once prolific language used in the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches of the Slavic variety. The reasoning given for not using it is that "no one understands it" or " we never sing it". of course both lines of reasoning are self fulfilling. By not using a language, it will automatically die out.
It becomes more frustrating when a younger generation wishes to learn this language and its beauty while an older generation looks askance and dismisses anyone who wants to learn it.
Why learn Old Church Slavonic? We have translations in English now so there is no more need to bother with that 'dead' language anymore. While we are trying to kill the language, we are at the same time desperately preserving the music which was set originally to that language!!! The irony! If there was truly a desire to rid our church of Slavonic, then why bother to keep a musical tradition which utilised the multisyllabic nature of Slavonic? It seems the answer has more to do with a hierarchy that cares not to know the language than the faithful who still long for hearing the Liturgy in the language of their ancestors.
It becomes more frustrating when a younger generation wishes to learn this language and its beauty while an older generation looks askance and dismisses anyone who wants to learn it.
Why learn Old Church Slavonic? We have translations in English now so there is no more need to bother with that 'dead' language anymore. While we are trying to kill the language, we are at the same time desperately preserving the music which was set originally to that language!!! The irony! If there was truly a desire to rid our church of Slavonic, then why bother to keep a musical tradition which utilised the multisyllabic nature of Slavonic? It seems the answer has more to do with a hierarchy that cares not to know the language than the faithful who still long for hearing the Liturgy in the language of their ancestors.
Tuesday, January 30, 2007
A few more reflections
I have grown so tired of these posters on Byzcath.org attacking good people such as Prof. Thompson and Fr David Petras for their involvement with the revision. I know Prof. Thompson from my trips to Pittsburgh for the MCI classes over the last 6 years. (Five flights each year!) I travelled with him to Uzhorod last summer where I have pictures of him with Metropolitan Nicholas.
My own experience with crossover between jurisdictions has always been positive.
Last year while visiting in Perth Amboy, NJ (after just having been in Uzhorod, with Prof Thompson) I wound up singing a Parastas at the ACROD church since there was no cantor available. I had gone in on a Monday morning hoping for the possibility of attending a liturgy only to find no one inside. I went up to the icon at the tetrapod to venerate it. I heard a rustling in the sacristy and hoped that Fr would come out if there wasn't going to be a liturgy. He did. He indicated that originally he was going to have a Parastas/Panachida that morning but the cantor wasn't able to make it. Being a cantor myself, I volunteered my services. Fr. accepted, and I sang the Panachida, Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox style! It helped that I had already met him a few years back.
This church, St John the Baptist, was the same church that my grandfather had been assigned to by Bishop Basil Takach in the 20's. In the 30's the parish council voted to go orthodox (ACROD) and told the catholic parishioners they could leave. My grandfather was one of those who remained Catholic and left, helping to form a new parish (St Nicholas) located only a mile away. When I first visited the ACROD parish three years ago, I learned that my grandfather had not completly severed ties to that parish and was in fact fondly remembered.
Many times, I have sung with my local OCA church choir for Vespers and even some of the all Slavonic liturgies they do once a month. I have even chanted the psalms at the Antiochian Orthodox parish. The priests at both parish know I am Byzantine Catholic and have even come to some of our parish dinners.
My own experience with crossover between jurisdictions has always been positive.
Last year while visiting in Perth Amboy, NJ (after just having been in Uzhorod, with Prof Thompson) I wound up singing a Parastas at the ACROD church since there was no cantor available. I had gone in on a Monday morning hoping for the possibility of attending a liturgy only to find no one inside. I went up to the icon at the tetrapod to venerate it. I heard a rustling in the sacristy and hoped that Fr would come out if there wasn't going to be a liturgy. He did. He indicated that originally he was going to have a Parastas/Panachida that morning but the cantor wasn't able to make it. Being a cantor myself, I volunteered my services. Fr. accepted, and I sang the Panachida, Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox style! It helped that I had already met him a few years back.
This church, St John the Baptist, was the same church that my grandfather had been assigned to by Bishop Basil Takach in the 20's. In the 30's the parish council voted to go orthodox (ACROD) and told the catholic parishioners they could leave. My grandfather was one of those who remained Catholic and left, helping to form a new parish (St Nicholas) located only a mile away. When I first visited the ACROD parish three years ago, I learned that my grandfather had not completly severed ties to that parish and was in fact fondly remembered.
Many times, I have sung with my local OCA church choir for Vespers and even some of the all Slavonic liturgies they do once a month. I have even chanted the psalms at the Antiochian Orthodox parish. The priests at both parish know I am Byzantine Catholic and have even come to some of our parish dinners.
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