Some Youtube.com offerings

A video from Ukraine last year when I visited.

Into my twighlight of byzcath.org

Christos Anesti!

Fr. Anthony,

You posted further down:

"Father Serge and ByzanTN, Christ is Risen!

Somehow you have already managed to steer this thread off topic. Neither of your posts has anything to do with the question asked in the opening post. ...."

I don't see how ByzanTN's post particularly steered this thread off topic. However, the prior reference to camels by Fr Serge sure did!!! Ed Hash's post didn't help either.

Just curious....

It seems that since the whole subject of the RDL is contentous, those who have stayed on to debate it could probably use a little humor since the people who have the answers have apparently stopped visiting this board due to the lopsided playing field.

Myself, I have stopped posting here because of the views of several strong posters (including the Admin). I only watch now with sadness at all the venom spewed forth in these posts regarding the tragic experiment called the RDL. If we as a church (BCC) are not strong enough to handle such changes, then perhaps we will slowly, but unstoppably die away into history, as a footnote to the whole of church history. It does not make it any less uncomfortable for those of us who quietly fight to preserve our heritage and church.

In a way we're like the early Christians, folly to the Greeks, and a conundrum to the Jews. Just substitute Roman Catholic and Orthodox and in the middle you have us; Greek Catholics. At times it seems we are reviled and ostracised by both Catholics and Orthodox for wanting to be both.

Perhaps, it too is time I removed by bookmark to Byzcath.org and let it go...

Steve

My response to Monomakh, in case byzcath deletes it...

Monomakh,

I haven't searched the archives yet. Does your own parish, If BCC, serve Matins? How many OCA parishes serve matins? How many ACROD parishes? The problem is more widespread than just the BCC.

As to on verses of the antiphons.....sigh.... I had hoped that there would be restoration of the full antiphons. Sadly in our church's history there has bee one verse of the antiphons for far too long. The last 100 years seems to be too far back in our church's history to find REGULARLY sung multiple verses of the antiphons. Yes maybe 1% of our parishes did sing all three antiphons with all three verses on a REGULAR basis.

Too often we here seem to be like the three blind men describing an elephant based upon the limited information we can gather by what we experience. To extrapolate our parish experience to all the Metropolia will always be incomplete. Some parishes celebrate a fuller cycle of liturgical services than do others. This seems more a function of the priests (and to some small extent the laity) in the individual parishes. Would that our Bishops mandate better consistency in the celebration of Liturgies throughout our Eparchies!!! {oh wait, they did and many rebelled!!!} Would that our Bishops followed the Orthodox celebration of the liturgical cycle. Would that all BCC's wish for such a renewal!

To call this restoration akin to the "Democratic People's Republic" of North Korea is somewhat misleading and extreme. Perhaps you could cite when in our history as a church the people (laity) have ever had so much say in how the liturgy is celebrated?

This, my unworthy $.0002 opinion,

Steve

more brotherly love from Byzcath.org.....

A poster at byzcath.org "Etnick" wrote this recently,

"Can you join me for vespers this Saturday? Oh! I forgot! Vespers is only celebrated in 1% of BCC churches. (I was being generous with 1%) Good luck with watered down Byzantine Liturgy!"

Enough with this BS posturing about watered down liturgies!!! Geeeez! Does byzcath.org endorse such statements? It seems so, since by and large there is a blatant bias regarding allowing such posts while suppressing posts which favor any of the revisions or opinions supporting them. There are most likely more than 1% of BCC parishes that REGULARLY celebrate vespers. Not every Orthodox parish is a model of perfection compared to each BCC parish. Etnick seems to be quite insulated in his commentary toward the BCC on byzcath.org which he admits to having left for the Orthodox Church. Are we remaining BCC's to stand by idly with this sort of attack? NO! If we dislike the changes to the Liturgy we must remain BCC! If we all run away from our parishes all we will succeed in doing is hastening the collapse of the Byzantine Cathollic Church. If we truly love our church we should stick to it and pray that our Bishops will undertake to correct some of the mistakes (and the misgivings) in regard to the recent revision of our Divine Liturgy. Overall, their hearts are in the right place, it was more the manner in which the revision was presented (or not represented) to the laity which caused such a problem.

For a balanced, moderated board(Byzcath.org) , this seems to be the usual tone of lately of the more strident posters who have agendas and are seeming allowed free reign to post such diatribes. So much for balance and Christian charity on byzcath.org!....

A Heartfelt Post on ByzCath.org

"Brethren in Risen Christ, our Life and Saviour,

Invited in April 2005 by a noble sister in Christ, I joined this forum, where I found a fine place for expressing in writing a few thoughts, prayers as well.

I have no idea how, but this forum, the only where I post sometimes, transformed slowly and I could not define it how is now. But it is not more that fine place.

However, I do know that valuable members began to visit it more rare, being bittered by certain aspects such as adversity between Catholic and Orthodox, or being bittered by the discussions upon the revised Divine Liturgy etc. etc.

Members who contributed with their love to this forum.

Therefore, I, a nothingness, dare to remind you all these words:

Quote:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.
(John 13, 34-35, NIV)

As you already know, love is a commandment, not an option. Even if this board is a virtual one, we must care of every word, for we will answer before our Master for every word.

We all need the mercy of God.

I hope that this forum will promote the unity between the Sisters Churches, and foremost of all will testify the Risen Christ.

Are we disciples of Lord Jesus Christ?

Remembering now a gentle Saint, Saint Isaac the Syrian, I say with all heart:

May God fill your souls with Eternal Life! Amen & Amin!

In Risen Christ <><

Brother Marian+"


I could not have said it any better!!!!
Marian is seeing the forum from the eyes of a non-American( Eastern European) perspective. We have become so accustomed to venting our feelings about the changes in the Pittsburgh Metropolia that we forget how our brethren around the world see us.

Old Church Slavonic, a lost language......almost

Slowly, it seems, there is an immutable force driving a noble church language into the realm of a truly dead language. This force is actually the force of many individuals who actively and passively do not care for this once prolific language used in the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches of the Slavic variety. The reasoning given for not using it is that "no one understands it" or " we never sing it". of course both lines of reasoning are self fulfilling. By not using a language, it will automatically die out.

It becomes more frustrating when a younger generation wishes to learn this language and its beauty while an older generation looks askance and dismisses anyone who wants to learn it.

Why learn Old Church Slavonic? We have translations in English now so there is no more need to bother with that 'dead' language anymore. While we are trying to kill the language, we are at the same time desperately preserving the music which was set originally to that language!!! The irony! If there was truly a desire to rid our church of Slavonic, then why bother to keep a musical tradition which utilised the multisyllabic nature of Slavonic? It seems the answer has more to do with a hierarchy that cares not to know the language than the faithful who still long for hearing the Liturgy in the language of their ancestors.

A few more reflections

I have grown so tired of these posters on Byzcath.org attacking good people such as Prof. Thompson and Fr David Petras for their involvement with the revision. I know Prof. Thompson from my trips to Pittsburgh for the MCI classes over the last 6 years. (Five flights each year!) I travelled with him to Uzhorod last summer where I have pictures of him with Metropolitan Nicholas.

My own experience with crossover between jurisdictions has always been positive.

Last year while visiting in Perth Amboy, NJ (after just having been in Uzhorod, with Prof Thompson) I wound up singing a Parastas at the ACROD church since there was no cantor available. I had gone in on a Monday morning hoping for the possibility of attending a liturgy only to find no one inside. I went up to the icon at the tetrapod to venerate it. I heard a rustling in the sacristy and hoped that Fr would come out if there wasn't going to be a liturgy. He did. He indicated that originally he was going to have a Parastas/Panachida that morning but the cantor wasn't able to make it. Being a cantor myself, I volunteered my services. Fr. accepted, and I sang the Panachida, Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox style! It helped that I had already met him a few years back.

This church, St John the Baptist, was the same church that my grandfather had been assigned to by Bishop Basil Takach in the 20's. In the 30's the parish council voted to go orthodox (ACROD) and told the catholic parishioners they could leave. My grandfather was one of those who remained Catholic and left, helping to form a new parish (St Nicholas) located only a mile away. When I first visited the ACROD parish three years ago, I learned that my grandfather had not completly severed ties to that parish and was in fact fondly remembered.

Many times, I have sung with my local OCA church choir for Vespers and even some of the all Slavonic liturgies they do once a month. I have even chanted the psalms at the Antiochian Orthodox parish. The priests at both parish know I am Byzantine Catholic and have even come to some of our parish dinners.

C'mon people! Where's the strong posts of protest? It's so easy to derail a thread that has such promise like this one. Is outrage that there is less outrage! Burn those calories in angry protest!!! Raise your blood pressure over an issue you have no real control over! Send your checks for Fr. Serge's book. Read it through and through. Run to the Orthodox church where everything is perfect! Don't lose steam now....page 3 was going so strong, what happened?

While "on Eagles Wings" in being set to prostopinije tone 9, make the full revision and translate it into Latin! Revise the proposed liturgy revision with your own "hit parade" of cover versions to suit every fancy.

Seriously, this thread started off with a well thought out proposition (of which I don't agree with all the points), and like most threads on this topic of topics has degenerated into the usual silliness surrounding this debate.

in response to the original post:
1) after telling your priest you don't want the DL revised, what can he do that you haven't already done? Withholding your tithe will only close your parish faster.
2) Write you Eparch first before step 1. There is more at stake.
3) Perhaps this should be step 1.
4) presuming you obtain actual copies of the proposed liturgy rather than initial documents which can and will be disputed. Little litanies were lost in Parma/Van nuys back in the 70's folks.
5) support Fr Serge's efforts to control our heirarchs and buy his book with the money you saved by not tithing.
6) when the revised liturgy arrives in your parish, take time to actually try it before you throw it away. The advice given in the original post amounts to 'don't vote in November, the outcome won't change'.

Yes our dear priests will likely have no choice in the matter but close the parish because their parishioners left without first seeing what the change was really about. As to speaking out with impunity, I know from experience that it does come back to haunt you. Will it be "too late" once the revision comes out? There has been change before , there will continue to be change after.

One can already check out other churches without waiting for the revision. If you are anxious to leave the Pittsburgh Metropolia for Orthodox jurisdictions, don't let the spectre of a translation change get in your way.

Steve

More thoughts on Byzcath.org Revised Liturgy Forum

Forty two years ago, a major change was made to our liturgy, did we have a say in it? How many people know who was on the commision then? Does anybody remember when the changes were promulgated? It helps that then, we did not have the internet to hyper rapidly speed news, opinions, and counter opinions into households and parishes within the Metropolia of Pittsburgh.

Today we see a sad recurrence of distrust within the Metropolia tearing our ailing church apart. In this sub forum, The Revised Divine Liturgy there has been a strong anti IEMC/IELC/MCI sentiment shown toward any pro IEMC/IELC/MCI posts. Two stubborn divergent camps have formed, with a lack of charity growing each day as the debate grows more personal.

Have we forgotton the painful experiences of our past? No. But we seem to repeat them nonetheless. While posters on both side of the issue make claim and counter claim, watchers from many churches, Catholic and Orthodox, look on in amazement as we tear each other apart verbally, rather than build each other up. Sadly there have been a number of priests caught up in both sides of this debate who have showed a lack of charity at times. I do not use the word lightly given that I too have been sometimes less than charitable in my posts, and have been admonished for it by the admin.

One side claims our liturgy never changes. The other counters that it has always changed over the centuries. Both sides are correct.

I used to enjoy browsing byzcath.org before The Revised Divine Liturgy forum appeared.

Two posts caught my attention to this:

[quote]This thread instead of being an informative discussion of church, has degraded into attacks on personal character and unfounded accusations. Instead of proving a point, undo enemies to any efforts are being further created. Rather than have this futile exercise continue I am closing this thread.

I am deeply disappointed in the matter that things have been represented on this thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ [/quote]

and by Admin:

[quote]First point:

:Jeff wrote:
"...you should probably START by convincing the bishops that your request for a broader review comes from honest interest and willingness to help."

Such a statement is offensive and I demand that you offer an immediate apology to the entire Forum community.

There is no one who is participating in this discussion who does not have an honest interest and a willingness to serve our Church. Never, ever conclude that principled disagreement by fellow Christians amounts to dishonesty and unwillingness to serve the Church. [/quote]

After valiantly making his point time and again amid the animosty shown toward his knowledge by some members of the forum, I feel Jeff certainly owes me no apology as a member of the forum, unless you feel that I am not part of the "entire Forum community". There is great frustration on all sides of an issue that lacks clear resolution from our heirarchs who should be leading our church.

Even when any liturgical and music changes are promulgated there is always the possibility of further change. If there weren't a possibility of change, there wouldn't/couldn't have been any changes implemented ever in the past. Is our Liturgy exactly (as in identical in every word action and note) the same as was celebrated 100 years ago?500 years? 40 years?

My worthless use of bytes on the internet,

Steve

Some thoughts on the debate of "new" music on Byzcath.org

Why is the music from the current Pittsburgh Metropolia IEMC constantly being reffered to as "new" music? The only "new" part of the music is in fact the translation. The music is primarily taken from a 100 year old text published in Uzhorod, Ukraine.

Is there some [i]older[/i] music that we should be using instead?

I think of "new" music as the 1964/65 music commission's work which had an episcopal directive of 'keep it(the music) simple'. For more than a complete generation now we have been singing this "new" music, that came at the same time as a translation coincidentally.

The real issue has not been the music but the revised translations and the underlying revisions to the rubrics. The "new" music from the IEMC is no more difficult to sing than the 'original' Slavonic of 100 years ago.

Perhaps it is my biased view that things were not as we necessarily imagined them to be 100 years ago in the 'glory' days of our musical tradition.
Each of us only knows a tiny fraction of the history. Each of us also has a bias of our own history to colour our perceptions of what the past was.

It was enlightening to see and hear what was realy happening in modern day Ukraine and compare what has transpired in the USA with the music and translation issues.

More Uzhorod pictures

Captions coming soon...


1.) The opening Moleben to Blessed Theodore Romzha. 2)Bishop John and Milan Shashik 3.) Orthodox and Catholics Bishops (& Metropolitan Nicholas) together at worship. 4.) Bishop John, Bishop Milan Shashik, & Bishop at lunch in Seminary. 5.) Banner at entrance to seminary. 6.) Tomb of Bishop Theodore Rohmza. 7.) Cathedral in Muckachevo, Ukraine

WOW! What a trip!

Uzhorod, 2006 Conference on Prostopinije. Well, finally I have pictures.

The Greek Catholic Cathedral in Uzhorod, exterior & interior

One Month Before the Great Trip

To Uzhgorod...possibly the one time I can "afford" it. Stiil unemployed, but very much looking forward to the upcoming trip. It promises to be exciting, challenging, unusual, memorable and probably a host of other adjectives I haven't conjured up yet! I must remind myself that I should let things happen as they may and not get upset about the numerous changes in plans that are bound to arise.

I still have shopping and packing to do...a month seems like so little time, yet the event seems so far off!

A Joyous Orthodox Pascha to all!

For those who celebrate the old calender Pashca, Christos Voskrese! Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!

Although I am Catholic, I have always felt the connection with our seperated brethern in the Orthodox church.

View of St Nicholas OCA in McKees Rocks, PA.

Upcoming Trip This June

This June, I hope to make a trip to Uzhgorod, Ukraine for the 100th anniversary of the publication of Bokshay's "Prostopinije". It will mark my first major trip abroad, so I am hoping that all will go reasonably well.

"Prostopinije" was published in 1906 as a compilation of plain chant music for the Byzantine-Rusyn (Ruthenian) church. There are earlier texts that are sinilar to this, though not as well circulated as this text became. In 1925 Joachim Racsin published his collection of "Prostopionije" which followed Bokshay, and added more material form various sources. The 1944 "Plain Chant" and later the "Basic Chant" by Fr Andrew Sokol provided a transliterated text of Boshay's "Prostopinije" into Latin text (OCS pronunciation). Still later in 1969 Fr. Stefan Papp publlished his "Irmologion" which again used Bokshay as a refernce, though he included many particular melodies used in the Presov region that do not appear in the origional 1906 volume.

Interestingly in all three successor volumes some of the same musical typography errors are faithfullly copied. A particular example is the now less-used 'Voshel Jesi' melody for the Bishop's entrance.

I hope the conference is understandable (ie not entirely in Ukrainian) to an eager 'non-academic' like myself.

Steve P

Introduction

Vecernaja Zorja-Evening star

A commentary blog of Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy from the view of a cantor in the Eastern Catholic Church.

As a somewhat travelled cantor from the Eparchy of Van Nuys (Pittsburgh Metropolia, Byzantine Catholic) There are some thoughts i'd share with the 2 or 3 readers of this blog. (I doubt there would be more).

Steve