[quote]"I believe that Steve is incorrect in what he is stating here. All voices have been welcomed. Yet we have had some new Byzantines indicate that their opinions should be more valued than those with years of experience in various ministries (and that is wrong)."[/quote]
Welcomed so long as they are in line with the "cradle" view. Which was the point I was trying to make; that in our parishes and other means of interaction we subtly convey an attitude that unless everything they believe is 100%"cradle" then they are not "nash", our people.
A few examples by doing a simple search:
------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: Rufinus
Overall, I firmly disagree with what the moderator has written. I think that the Bishops have made the right decisions. I think that the Cantor Institute is right on track.
Just curious.
Where are you a cantor? What experience do you have cantoring?
Monomakh
-----------------------------------------------------
Rufinus,
You may be new to internet fora. Topics tend to occasionally drift, some more than others. Your review of the broadcast could help bring us back 'on topic'. ;\)
As for this being another 'cry room', are you surprised? The BCC isn't my Church, but I'm nearly brought to tears by what is being done to it by its leaders. I can't begin to imagine what it's like for those who have lived their entire lives in this Church. {BTW, you still haven't answered the question as to whether you are 'cradle' or 'convert'. Help keep things on topic and reply not here, but in the thread where the question was first asked. }
(posted by Kobzar)
--------------------------------------------------
It is also interesting that most of those involved with this reformation and those in favor of the RDL either are not originally Byzantine Catholic or Carpatho Rusyn (for the most part, there are those in traverse in favor...)
I see that Prof. Thompson is a registered user on this board, did he happen to vote? There is a definite vote yes...
(posted by Rusyn31)
-----------------------------------------------------
Again, seems to me to be a "Craddle vs. Convert" issue.
Craddle Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have a big problem with the new music. Converts don't have a problem with the new music probably because they never experienced the Church Slavonic Prostopinije liturgies.
Ungcsertezs
-----------------------------------------------
Wednesday, August 15, 2007
Monday, August 13, 2007
I Know, Enough about Byzcath!!!!!
Yes but, it seems Fr. Anthony, the tireless vigilant moderator for truth and justice stikes again...Witness the following, my message to Fr Anthony:
Fr Anthony,
I am puzzled and disturbed by your sense of reasoning regarding Rufinus and this thread. The fact that Rufinus did not explicitly, overtly ,immediately, capitulate to your demand for a retraction based on your interpretation of his transgression, and the subsequent banning of him as a poster on Byzcath seems to remind me of a Gospel reading we just heard about forgiveness. Lately there seems to be little forgiveness shown toward those who are in favor of the RDL while the onslaught of negative commentary against the RDL continues unabated and unchecked.
While I see that you are Orthodox, you do come across as strictly authoritarian and somewhat uncompromising in your charity towards certain views.
Please read this carefully, as I do not wish to be banned based upon a purely PRIVATE letter to you which would be most uncharitable given the nature of private communications. I have often wondered why there is only one moderator,( you), of the RDL forum, and SEVERAL moderators of all other fora on this board.
To those of us observing the forum at Byzcath, it appears that you are being arbitrary in your exercise of power.
The pertinent posts which drew my attention to this matter:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U-C,
You can't accept the support of non-cradles and give them the right to speak when they agree with you and then tell non-cradles who disagree with you they have no right to comment. How long does one have to be a member of a particular Church before they have a right to speak? 10 years? 20 years? Never because they aren't cradles?
Fr. Deacon Lance
Rufinus,
Then that will be accepted as a retraction. I have received numerous complaints today over this "poor choice" of words in what seemed to be a personal attack on a poster. I allow free discussion as long as the forum rules of charity are followed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posting to this thread may resume
Fr. Anthony:
I in no way meant to attack anyone. I meant only that I shall not engage in an ad-hominen argument. Period. What astounds me is just as you posted your reply just such an attempt was made. This is what I meant by an attempt at "personal assessment." I meant, I will not permit an ad-hominen argument to develop. Period. But you are right. My words do read with a generality that has overtones that simply do not exist. Please retract the statement.
Rufinus
Rufinus,
You are hereby given an indefinite suspension until such point as you are willing to retract. You have been known for playing these word games and until such time as you retract and act in the proper decorum, you will be outside looking in. There is nothing "ad-hominen" about the above post.
This thread is now closed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Fr Anthony,
I am puzzled and disturbed by your sense of reasoning regarding Rufinus and this thread. The fact that Rufinus did not explicitly, overtly ,immediately, capitulate to your demand for a retraction based on your interpretation of his transgression, and the subsequent banning of him as a poster on Byzcath seems to remind me of a Gospel reading we just heard about forgiveness. Lately there seems to be little forgiveness shown toward those who are in favor of the RDL while the onslaught of negative commentary against the RDL continues unabated and unchecked.
While I see that you are Orthodox, you do come across as strictly authoritarian and somewhat uncompromising in your charity towards certain views.
Please read this carefully, as I do not wish to be banned based upon a purely PRIVATE letter to you which would be most uncharitable given the nature of private communications. I have often wondered why there is only one moderator,( you), of the RDL forum, and SEVERAL moderators of all other fora on this board.
To those of us observing the forum at Byzcath, it appears that you are being arbitrary in your exercise of power.
The pertinent posts which drew my attention to this matter:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U-C,
You can't accept the support of non-cradles and give them the right to speak when they agree with you and then tell non-cradles who disagree with you they have no right to comment. How long does one have to be a member of a particular Church before they have a right to speak? 10 years? 20 years? Never because they aren't cradles?
Fr. Deacon Lance
Rufinus,
Then that will be accepted as a retraction. I have received numerous complaints today over this "poor choice" of words in what seemed to be a personal attack on a poster. I allow free discussion as long as the forum rules of charity are followed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posting to this thread may resume
Fr. Anthony:
I in no way meant to attack anyone. I meant only that I shall not engage in an ad-hominen argument. Period. What astounds me is just as you posted your reply just such an attempt was made. This is what I meant by an attempt at "personal assessment." I meant, I will not permit an ad-hominen argument to develop. Period. But you are right. My words do read with a generality that has overtones that simply do not exist. Please retract the statement.
Rufinus
Rufinus,
You are hereby given an indefinite suspension until such point as you are willing to retract. You have been known for playing these word games and until such time as you retract and act in the proper decorum, you will be outside looking in. There is nothing "ad-hominen" about the above post.
This thread is now closed.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Saturday, August 11, 2007
Another Yahoo group I'm off of
Well, it seems too trite to have even been worth such a fuss.
The moderator/owner of Byzantine Catholics Speak has decided that my presence is no longer desired in her sandbox. her final email to me is a bit confused:
Dear Steve,
A few moments after your peevish withdrawl, I got the message at the end of my note here, from Seglinde.
I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company.
I'll keep you and kathielee and hermit[man] in my prayers.
Thanks again for you contributions to the list...those things of real substance I mean. When you speak substantively, you are a real gem of a participant. Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all.
You are surely welcome back at any time but not to fly into a fit of peeve every time your sensitivities get tweaked.
Mary
Strange thing is, I had only posted exactly four messages on that group prior to this: My last message having been a rebuke over the tone of the posts. Specifically thus:
"Hows about changing the subject line too, since the thread has slid father than father's original slide?
Steve,
(Unworthy lurker) "
When things got heated between Mary (owner/moderator) and another member, Hermit, I posted the following rebuke:
"WOW!!!! This email list is becoming a replica of Byzcath.org ,(including the threats to ban/moderate members), now that the forum on Byzcath has quieted down to a mere whisper lately,
Time to turn off the email feed and find some peace and quiet.
Steve
Mary Lanser wrote:
It is prideful to come into an area of the Church of which you have little knowledge and refuse to listen long enough to dispel ignorance.
It is also prideful to come among strangers and take over.
One more such outburst and I will put you on moderation till you can learn a little self control...no...a LOT of self control.
Mary
On 8/10/07, *Hermit* <hermitary302@yahoo.com
St. Basil said: "To be proud is sometimes virtuous. To have pride
is a vice always. It is a killer vice. It is a big, bad major
slayer! Pride leads the parade of capital sins and always wants to
be first. Humility seeks the least or nothing. "
My reply to Mary, thus ending our rather short exchange of words, and my involvement from the beginning of her group was such:
Mary,
While my support is well appreciated, I gather it wasn't appreciated well enough to retain membership on the group.
In another email you wrote:
"I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company."...."Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all. "
That comes across as "snitty" in it's own respect. Either you you do or you don't respect my views. period. I gather that you don't really respect my views because you place more weight on a few "snitty" remarks over anything substantive that I have posted.
I pray that you will find peace in whatever church you find yourself in. I myself don't like the revision of the RDL however I will remain faithful to the church of my family for so many generations before me, good bishop or bad bishops, good priests or bad priests, good cantors or bad cantors.
I regret our parting of ways was not as peaceful as one would hope, but it is a parting nonetheless.
In Christ,
Steve
So, a learning lesson to all: When it's somebody else's sandbox you've been invited to play in, they are always right even when they are totally wrong. Such is life. Mary started her group out of frustration and anger and her dealings with people there are still colored by that same anger. May Mary find peace in her search for the perfect church which squares with her views.
The moderator/owner of Byzantine Catholics Speak has decided that my presence is no longer desired in her sandbox. her final email to me is a bit confused:
Dear Steve,
A few moments after your peevish withdrawl, I got the message at the end of my note here, from Seglinde.
I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company.
I'll keep you and kathielee and hermit[man] in my prayers.
Thanks again for you contributions to the list...those things of real substance I mean. When you speak substantively, you are a real gem of a participant. Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all.
You are surely welcome back at any time but not to fly into a fit of peeve every time your sensitivities get tweaked.
Mary
Strange thing is, I had only posted exactly four messages on that group prior to this: My last message having been a rebuke over the tone of the posts. Specifically thus:
"Hows about changing the subject line too, since the thread has slid father than father's original slide?
Steve,
(Unworthy lurker) "
When things got heated between Mary (owner/moderator) and another member, Hermit, I posted the following rebuke:
"WOW!!!! This email list is becoming a replica of Byzcath.org ,(including the threats to ban/moderate members), now that the forum on Byzcath has quieted down to a mere whisper lately,
Time to turn off the email feed and find some peace and quiet.
Steve
Mary Lanser wrote:
It is prideful to come into an area of the Church of which you have little knowledge and refuse to listen long enough to dispel ignorance.
It is also prideful to come among strangers and take over.
One more such outburst and I will put you on moderation till you can learn a little self control...no...a LOT of self control.
Mary
On 8/10/07, *Hermit* <hermitary302@yahoo.com
St. Basil said: "To be proud is sometimes virtuous. To have pride
is a vice always. It is a killer vice. It is a big, bad major
slayer! Pride leads the parade of capital sins and always wants to
be first. Humility seeks the least or nothing. "
My reply to Mary, thus ending our rather short exchange of words, and my involvement from the beginning of her group was such:
Mary,
While my support is well appreciated, I gather it wasn't appreciated well enough to retain membership on the group.
In another email you wrote:
"I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company."...."Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all. "
That comes across as "snitty" in it's own respect. Either you you do or you don't respect my views. period. I gather that you don't really respect my views because you place more weight on a few "snitty" remarks over anything substantive that I have posted.
I pray that you will find peace in whatever church you find yourself in. I myself don't like the revision of the RDL however I will remain faithful to the church of my family for so many generations before me, good bishop or bad bishops, good priests or bad priests, good cantors or bad cantors.
I regret our parting of ways was not as peaceful as one would hope, but it is a parting nonetheless.
In Christ,
Steve
So, a learning lesson to all: When it's somebody else's sandbox you've been invited to play in, they are always right even when they are totally wrong. Such is life. Mary started her group out of frustration and anger and her dealings with people there are still colored by that same anger. May Mary find peace in her search for the perfect church which squares with her views.
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