Vechernaja Zorja The Evening Star

And the new Metropolitan is....

2012-01-19T07:45:00.000-08:00

Bishop William Skurla, of Passaic.
http://www.eparchyofpassaic.com/bishop.htm

I had guessed it would be him a while back for several reasons. Primarily because he is the most senior of the four current bishops in eparchial ordination. More telling though is that our current "synod" of merely four bishops, always votes for one of its own and seems to always choose the most "Latin minded" for their short list in order to placate Rome.
Ultimately, this does a grave disservice to the Ruthenian Metropolia in that we continue to have ever weaker Metropolitans guiding an already rudderless church and it diffuses the once rich heritage our church enjoyed by introducing non Rusyn elements into our liturgics and worship.

It does also seem that the decision was waited on until after the passing of Bishop Andrew, who even after retirement was still a strong force.

Being a younger Metropolitan, we will be sure to endure many years of rudderless leadership.I had hoped that a more vostochnik Metropolitan would have been selected.

Mnohaja L'ita Vladyka William!

Eternal Memory, Vladyka Andrew.

2011-12-09T18:09:00.000-08:00

Retired Bishop Andrew of the Pittsburgh Metropolia fell asleep in the lord on Dec 8th after being in a car accident. He was serving as the priest for St Nicholas Byzantine Catholic church in Perth Amboy, NJ.

St Nicholas parish was the home of my grandfather, who had met Bishop Andrew (as a priest) in the 1960's.

Sister Churches Wait for New Metropolitan

2011-09-17T22:42:00.000-07:00

Both the Byzantine Catholic Church in America (BCCA) and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church (ACROD) are awaiting the selection and elevation of a new Metropolitan. The two churches which are cloesly related are in similar situations following the repose of their respective Metropolitans, Basil of the BCCA and Nicholas of the ACROD.

This situation leaves both churches leaderless in a time of fragility.

Let us pray that the situations are resolved soon.

Various internet streaming video and audio of Divine Liturgies

2011-07-03T13:21:00.000-07:00

All are primarily 9:00am EST/6:00am PST Sunday

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/holy-ghost-church
http://www.acrod.org/organizations/cathedral/live (also have archived video)
http://wedo810.com/ (some programs archived)

Pascha, again I say Pascha!

2011-04-27T23:21:00.000-07:00

Христос Воскресе! Воистину Воскресе!

Hristos a înviat! Adevărat a înviat!

Χριστός Ανέστη! Αληθώς ανέστη!

Kristus vstal z mŕtvych! Naozaj bol vzkriesený!

Христос Воскрес! Воістину Воскрес!

The Feast of Feasts, the resurrection of our Lord is here!
This is the day the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it!

Vichnaja pamjat, vladyka Nikolai

2011-03-16T22:54:00.000-07:00

Tomorrow is the parastas/ great panachida for (American Carpatho Russian Orthodox Diocese) ACROD Metropolitan Nicholas. I dearly wish I could be there in Perth Amboy. Not only because I had a tiny slice of time to speak one on one with this great man, but also because of his connection to my grandfather, Prof. John Petach, and by association, to the same church, the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh.

Christos Razdajestsja! Slavite Jeho!

2010-12-24T12:30:00.001-08:00

Христос народився!
Христос родился!
Hristos se naşte!

The season that marks the coming of the end of slavery to death is at hand, for with the birth of Christ the beginning of a new covenant arrives, one that will later be punctuated by His resurrection!

1. Give ear all you distant lands,
for God is with us. (1)
2. You mighty ones, submit yourselves,
for God is with us. (2)
3. If you strengthen yourselves again, again you will be defeated,
for God is with us. (1)
4. Form a plan, but the Lord will thwart it,
for God is with us. (2)
5. Whatever word you speak will not stand even among yourselves,
for God is with us. (1)
6. We will not fear what you fear nor shall we be dismayed,
for God is with us. (2)
7. Hallow the Lord our God and He will be your fear,
for God is with us. (1)
8. If you trust in Him, He will be your refuge,
for God is with us. (2)
9. We will hope in Him and by Him will we be saved,
for God is with us. (1)
10. Here am I with the children God has given me,
for God is with us. (2)
11. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light,
for God is with us. (1)
12. Upon you who dwelt in the shadow of death a light has shone,
for God is with us. (1)
13. For a child is born to us; a son is given to us,
for God is with us.(2)
14. Upon His shoulder dominion rests,
for God is with us. (1)
15. Of His peace there is no end,
for God is with us. (2)
16. They call Him Angel of Great Counsel,
for God is with us. (1)
17. Wonderful Counselor,
for God is with us. (2)
18. Mighty God, Master, Prince of Peace,
for God is with us. (1)
19. Father of the age to come,
for God is with us. (2)
20. Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
for God is with us. (1)
21. Now and ever and forever. Amen,
for God is with us. (2)

I added some new links to my list...

2010-10-23T19:54:00.000-07:00

Among then a funny, yet somehow sad look at what the western Catholic and Protestant churches have experimented with in the way of liturgical vestments. It is not another blog of mine, rather that of someone else who seems to have an eye for finding those garish liturgical vestments. :-)

http://badvestments.blogspot.com/

Our future Metropolitan......

2010-10-08T22:35:00.000-07:00

I worry about the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, more commonly known in the US as the Byzantine Catholic Church, Sui Juris. If the past pattern of selecting and elevating bishops who later become Metropolitans, our next Metropolitan would be Bishop William by virtue of seniority of elevation to the eparchial position.

Sadly, it seems that experience, orthodox views, and the will of the laity are not criteria for selecting the leader of our church. The Synod, consisting of three current bishops and one bishop emeritus, make the critical spiritual decision for all the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics in the Pittsburgh Metropolia. Kind of a scary thought that these four men have such awesome power and that the choice they make will more likely than not be based upon which religious order (Fransican) the candidate is a member of rather than their positions regarding orthodoxy in Eastern Catholicism.

+Metropolitan Basil M. Schott+

2010-06-19T12:12:00.000-07:00

Friday was the funeral for Metropolitan Basil who passed away a week before.
Video is from: www.stnickbyz.com posted on Youtube.
More pictures are available on the St Nicholas Byzantine page on Facebook.

This is the day the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it!

2010-04-07T22:15:00.000-07:00

Христос Воскресе!
Hristos a înviat!
Cristo ha resucitado!

Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life!

Some video of the Romainian Divine Liturgy

2010-01-07T22:19:00.000-08:00

In mid December, the first regular Divine Liturgy for the Romaian Greek Catholic mission (Eparchy of Canton, OH) celebrated at the Ruthenian Cathedral of St. Mary (Eparchy of Van Nuys, CA).

Manhattan Delaration Link

2009-11-28T22:29:00.000-08:00

St Mary Romanian Catholic mission will be at the Cathedral of St Mary

2009-11-01T21:20:00.000-08:00

starting Nov 15, 2009 the Romanian Catholic mission parish of St Mary in los Angeles will be celebrating Divine Liturgy at the Cathedral of St. Mary in Sherman Oaks, CA at 11:30 A.m.

Regarding the alleged less than 1 hour RDL liturgies

2009-09-12T22:58:00.000-07:00

Today, a simple divine liturgy for the leave-taking of the feast of the birth of the Theotokos; Divine liturgy consisted of Fr. and myself as cantor. Liturgy was just under 1 hour due to no homily. I didn't rush anything nor did Fr. That said, how then, can a full congregational DL be under an hour with a homily and communion and announcements before the blessing if it takes an hour to celebrate a DL with exactly two people-a priest and cantor (with no homily, communion for one, and no announcements?

Sigh.........

2009-09-12T22:44:00.000-07:00

I get into those depressive funks when I think of what our church used to be.... It seems to me that in this modern era our church, the Byzantine Catholic Church (aka the Metropolia of Pittsburgh), had lost its way regarding its past. In short it has worked hard to lose it's past in favor of a culturally neutral (and recently, gender neutral) future. It is bad enough that the Old Church Slavonic is all but banished from liturgical worship, but we also have to contend with an awful gender neutral translation to do it with!!! The over aim of the liturgical and music commission started out with good intentions then took a wrong turn somewhere and wound up with the translation nightmare we are stuck with for the present time. The "new" (actually hundreds of years old) music settings are a welcome return to our heritage, but the gender neutral language is a painful reminder that our bishops are out of step with the current times in regard to returning to orthodoxy in the Eastern Catholic Churches in general.

Memories of St Nicholas, Perth Amboy

2009-07-17T21:06:00.000-07:00

A 1950's (?) era photo of the choir at St Nicholas Byzantine Catholic Church in Perth Amboy, NJ. Front row center are Fr Julius Grigassy and Prof. John Petach (my grandfather).

This appears to be Pascha at St Nicholas. The pictures are dated as April 15th, 1956. The parish is still active, but with a considerably smaller congregation than in the 1950's. More recently in 2009, the altar was restored to the proper square shape and an iconstas has been installed

East meets West pilgrimage at St Andrews Abbey in Valyermo

2009-06-14T19:25:00.000-07:00

Friday September 25
5:00 PM, Vespers in the Byzantine Chapel (old youth center chapel) at St. Andrew's Abbey.
6:30 PM, Dinner in main refectory
7:30 PM, Conference talk

Saturday September 26
8:30 AM, Matins, Byzantine Chapel
11:00 AM, procession with icon of the Mother of God from the Byzantine Chapel main Abbey area
11:30 AM, Hierarchical Divine Liturgy
1:30 PM, Time for picnic lunches and fellowship
3:00 PM, Icon tours in Byzantine Chapel, and conference at Abbey Welcome Center
5:00 PM, Great Vespers in the Byzantine Rite
7:30 PM, Latin Rite service of Vigils for Sunday in the Benedictine tradition

Sunday September 27
8:30 AM, Matins, Byzantine Chapel
12:00 PM, Mass in the Latin Rite

Vicnaja Pamjat, Fr Stephen Dutko

2009-05-14T20:44:00.000-07:00

Though I never met him, I did meet his son David during my many visits to Pittsburgh.
The many Youtube videos bring a sense of family to this remote (in a Rusyn sense) part of the world.

The Paschal canon sung at the funeral of Fr Stephen. The joy is so radiant!

The church renovation

2009-01-24T14:26:00.000-08:00

About 3 years ago our church was renovated.
Here are some of the pictures of what the interior looked like before and after.

Before:

Right side view

Left side view

View from choir

After

View of front after renovation

Right side after renovation

Left side after renovation

The whole theme of the "renovation" seems to herald back to an earlier era of iconclasm, or at least minimalism regarding the usage of iconography. We once had walls vibrant with color and iconography, only to see the icons depicting the life of Mary (of whom our parish is named) that were interspersed between the stained glass icons depictiong the life of Jesus, removed and sold, given away to various parties, or who knows what. Now we have austere plain white walls that have no distracting color or iconography to bring the Divine Liturgy to life.

The gold leaf on the back wall of the sanctuary was painted over with "gold" paint. I don't know if that meant it was "gold" in color or actually had some miniscule amount of gold in the pigment.

Christos Razdajetsja!

2008-12-26T13:52:00.000-08:00

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Now we are in the feast of Christmas, til Jan 1 2009.

Perhaps this next year will be a brighter year for our troubled church. I hope and pray that our bishops will look positively toward the future rather than pessimistically as semi-retired Bishop Andrew has done in the Eparchy of passaic.

It was sad news hearing of the closing of St Nicholas in Edison, NJ. For 11 years the parishioners had enjoyed the fruits of their labors in a newly built church only to have a pessimistic and somewhat spiteful bishop callously sell it out from underneath them to pay for undisclosed 'expenses' of the Eparchy.

Our metropolia is shrinking in numbers largely due to our own lack of evangelisation both within and outside our church. We have failed to educate our youth in what our church means to us and how it relates to the world at large. We have become lazy in our own attendance at major feast days opting for other churches.

Oh another post about the sad state of affairs...

2008-09-15T21:28:00.000-07:00

It has been so nice NOT posting or really watching the activity at the dysfunctional Byzcath.org BBS. They are still so narrowly focused on the negatives of the RDL that they will never see any positive in anything coming out of the Byzantine (Rusyn) Church. The administrator is so full of himself that he can not see any good coming from the Metropolia of Pittsburgh (BCC) that he himself profess the BCC as his "former" church. I gather he had not the strength to stick with his church and fight rather than jump ship as indicated here: (emphasis by me)

"I should have noted it further, but even comparing the official Liturgicon with a Pew Book is a bit of comparing apples and pears. [Sorry, oranges are already taken.] I don’t give credit to the RDL for restoring the Third Antiphon and the Beatitudes since in my former parish they were in use for the past 25 years (we simply pasted them in the book). For us and a number of other parishes the RDL shortened them. How could you possibly consider that to be a restoration?"

Many time on that BBS I have seen references to RDL liturgies that are under an hour in length. I find it hard to believe especially in the Pennsylvania region where the singing is considerably slower than out here in the Van Nuys Eparchy that the Divine Liturgy could be celebrated so quickly. Our Sunday Liturgies regularly last 1.5 hours.

Forgiveness

2008-07-27T13:06:00.000-07:00

11th Sunday after Pentecost.
Byzcath.org posted on the main page:

Forgiveness Requires Forgiveness – The God of all men releases us from the difficulties of our faults, according to the parable. This is what is signified by the forgiveness of the debt of the ten thousand talents. But this happens only on the condition that we ourselves release our fellow servants from the hundred denarii, that is, from the few minor faults they have committed against us. (St. Cyril of Alexandria)

I don't suppose the administrators or moderators are ready to forgive those they banned and reinstate their posting priveleges? Nah! Taht wouldn't be the proper Christian thing to do now, would it? Gotta show "tough love" to those miscreants who dared to oppose the heirarchy of the BYZCATH.org church.

Ahh the bitter fruits.....

2008-07-16T17:51:00.000-07:00

From Byzcath.
I thought it so appropriate given how many they have banned or otherwise turned away at what purports to be a "balanced" bbs welcoming to all who desire to learn about eastern Christianity (even if the byzcath name implies a particular affiliation with the Byzantine Catholic Church-Metropolia of Pittsburgh). The administration there is similar to the chief priests and Pharisees in that they refuse to listen to any opinion regarding the changes in the BCC (particularly in regard to the "RDL" promulgated by the metropolitan and bishops of that church.) The hypocrisy did not go unnoticed.

Tenth Week After Pentecost

July 14-20, 2008

Matthew 21:43-46 – “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it. And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because they held him to be a prophet. (RSV - Gospel for Thursday)

Is the fruit you bear sweet or bitter? - Although [the chief priests and the Pharisees] were hard of heart and on account of their unbelief and wickedness blunted in their understanding against the Son of God, nevertheless they were unable to deny Jesus’ straightforward statements and understood that all the judgments of the Lord were directed against themselves. So they determined indeed to kill him but feared “the crowd, for they considered Jesus to be a prophet.” But crowds are easily moved, and do not persist in their resolution. The man they now honor and revere as a prophet they later shout against: “Crucify Him! Crucify Him!” (St. Jerome)

A correction to the last posting

2008-07-04T21:57:00.000-07:00

Seems ByzKat is still banned from byzcath.org till 2010! The devious ones there have changed the "banned" notice to "member" to deceive newcomers of the shameful way they treat posters with whom they disagree...

Ok, one l a s t post on byzcath.org, really......

2008-06-13T08:28:00.000-07:00

Rather than post publicly and be banned like so many others:

Perhaps it is summed up by the very posters;

Originally Posted By: Etnick
I'm sure that many OCA and other Orthodox people are far flung and whatnot, but the point is the services are always held. It's not up for debate. It's the Byzantine tradition. If you choose to call Byzantine Catholics as "Ersatz", maybe they are. Sort of a cafeteria mentality. We'll take this and this, but not this or this.

Rome keeps telling the EC's to be authentic. Why aren't they?

We aren't because you say we aren't? By Etnick's standards we fall short?

I don't choose it, these insults and monikers - I accept that is how those with a view to look down on us - often smugly - will put it. And boy do they.

I am happy for you who are located "Where we say men and mankind" that you have found the true fullness of Byzantine praxis by your standards. I wish you well and hope that you flourish and grow in holiness.

I really just cannot take a lot more of ByzCath during our Great Lent though. Some time off may be needed. I love the BCC and on here the way some are taking every opportunity to insult the Byzantine Catholics is just sad. Though it seems to be well accepted and allowable.

It is constant snyde mark and barb and criticism, one right after another, by folks inside and out... I just don't get what the attraction is to focus this VERY negative attention on our small church is all about.

Or perhaps it is the number of excellent posters such as Byzkat who were banned by an administrator, likely due to compelling posts and replies being hard to refute by Byzcath.org administration unwilling to accept the RDL that our Bishops promulgated.

I stopped posting there and mostly stopped reading that board back in Feb 2008 when Byzkat (Jeff Mierzejewski) was banned. Also after defending several friends who were defamed through libel, by malicious posters who remain active on that board (ungcertez, etnick, among others), I, and they (ByzKat, Fr David Petras, Prof Thompson, among others) left the company of that board (some INvountarily and othersvoluntarily), shaking the dust off our feet so to speak.

A closed thread which underscores the hostility found on Byzcath is here:
www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279617#Post279524]I guess they are right again...
Interestingly, this was the thread which ByzKat was banned. I notice he appears to be "un"-banned. I would guess he and others won't be coming back soon until there is a true metanoia amongst the administration of this bbs, which I would feel is highly unlikely.

Sincerely,
Steve

My last commentary on Byzcath

2008-05-28T20:14:00.000-07:00

For the indefinite time being, I have decided that the forum on Byzcath.org isn't worth posting on anymore since they (the administrators and moderators) have rather successfully banned or overtly discouraged those who disagreed with them from ever coming back. It's too bad since that bbs originally was 'home' to many good people of the Eastern Catholic faith, including myself. With the banishment of fellow member and Metropolitan Cantor Institute student ByzKat, back in February 2008, I have decided not to post there. (Not that anyone at that bbs really cares whether one who primarily lurked though did post often enough would leave). I did notice recently that ByzKat has been "un-banned" possibly in a vain hope to lure those of us disgusted by the one sided nature of that sandbox, particularly in the area of derisiveness toward those who held anything of a positive view toward the "Revised Divine Liturgy" or RDL for short.

In the future I will focus more on my travels again and the more positive aspects of the Byzantine (Ruthenian/Rusyn) Catholic Church. In particular I will add more pictres to the blog.

Till then,

Wow! What lack of charity from where else, but BYZCATH?

2008-04-16T13:08:00.000-07:00

Administrator
Administrator
Member

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 4475
Loc: Virginia

Originally Posted By: Happy Latin

"Pope John Paul can say what he likes on the issue but that does not make it so."

Amazing how some people can be so dismissive of the words of the pope.... I'm sorry, but we really don't need posters who place their personal understanding above Church Teaching. I stand by my post, and recommend Happy Latin find a forum where his opinion triumphs Catholic theology and praxis.

No, what Byzcath.org needs is an administrator who is capable of handling uncomfortable posts which challenge his authoritarian (and of course "correct") views. The poster he is so blithely dismissing has only posted six posts compared to the esteemed administrator who has posted well over four thousand posts. Obviously quantity wins over quality. Sheesh!

Oy! byzcath again...

2008-02-29T20:56:00.000-08:00

Administrator replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=280859#Post280859

[quote=PrJ]My ecclesiology teaches me that the Bishops are the successors of the Apostles and as such have been given the grace of God to lead the Church. From talking to those involved in the translation project, it is clear that the Bishops engaged in this project with a very deep reverence both for their calling as apostolic leaders of the Church and for the grace of God that they have received in their consecration. Therefore, this work (in my opinion) is an example of Apostolic and patristic praxis.[/quote]
I disagree respectfully with PrJ. The good intentions of the bishops and those who served on the committees that created the Revised Divine Liturgy in no way guarantees that the outcome is an example of Apostolic and patristic praxis. Good people can do bad things and we have in the Revised Divine Liturgy nothing less then a tragedy. We have texts and rubrics that are less accurate than those given in the 1964 edition. We have music that both disrespects what people have memorized and makes those singing it sound like English is not their native language (due to the improper accents). Good intentions have hurt a lot of people. Unfortunately, PrJ has fallen into the trap of judging things by the good intentions of those who created rather than the quality of the product."

Wow, what aggrandisement! The Administrator (and owner of)  Byzcath.org who is probably a good person himself and who can do no wrong in his own eyes is just as guilty of falling into the trap of believing that if we change what people memorized over the last 40 years (a wink of an eye in liturgical time), there will be tragedy!

What poppycock!

People learned those translations and setting from 1964, grew to memorise them and are now the older generation. Before them was another generation which had memorised the entire Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic with music that was substantially different than the 1964 settings (which were greatly simplified at the direction of the bishops, not the cantors given the task of setting the words and music).

Now since the Admin who wrote that statement is himself a cantor who has arranged (set) music for the Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Passaic, he would of course be beyond reproach himself even though his settings followed the same oversimplifications of the 1964 setings and even had his own syllAble problems (which most of us just ignored, being that the inserts weren't official outside the Eparchy of Passaic).

Another one BANNED from Byzcath...

2008-02-22T21:03:00.000-08:00

Another good and honest member BANNED form byzcath: Byzcat. Seems his only crime was being right about his views on music which countered with the owner/administrator of that board who seems to have a not so hidden agenda to discredit anyone associated with the RDL. It seems the admistrator's displeasure extends to those who disagree with his style of setting music, an endeavour he undertook for about 25 years prior to the introduction of the RDL last year. Sounds to me like a classic tale of 'sour grapes', almost sour raisins, dried up shriveled sour grapes at that. It seems that it may only be a matter of time before I join the league of "Banned" member of byzcath....

More byzcath frustration.

2008-01-21T08:23:00.000-08:00

I am saddened by the attitude Byzcath.org has taken regarding the thread "Prof. J. Michael Thompson Resigns".

The original poster had merely mentioned the fact of Prof Thompson's resignation. Yes, it is fact, I know first hand.

I had posted a rather strongly worded, perhaps too strongly worded for some, as the post has been deleted prior to the thread being locked, which called for some form of censure of those posters who were publicly revelling in Professor Thompson's misfortune of "resignation".

There have been numerous posters over the years at Byzcath.org who were outright banned or disallowed from posting for less over-the-top postings about others with whom they disagreed.

I had hoped the thread would have been locked or removed before the "If it is true, all I can say is Wooohooo!!!" post by Secret Squirrel who like Etnik, Ung-Certez, Rusyn31, Pisankar, InCogNeat3's and others have made no secret their dislike of Prof Thompson using Byzcath.org as a public platform to foment their anger at Thompson and anyone connected with the IELC/IEMC, all with the implicit consent of the administrators of the board.

Interestingly, the Administrator/owner of Byzcath.org posted this reply to me:

"Steve’s ongoing conflation of all judgment of Mr. Thompson’s work with judgment of his person is itself not charitable. Those who post negative comments about persons are dealt with by the moderators. Ultimately such comment only succeeds in reflecting negatively upon the man who posted it. Men of good will can and do comment legitimately on the work of another (be it Mr. Thompson’s, Msgr. Levkulic’s, Mr. Jumba’s, or anyone else’s). Great care should be taken both in expressing it (so that it is not personal) as well as in reading it (so as not to interpret legitimate commentary on work as judgment of person).

I can certainly agree with Steve’s comment about those who step forward undergoing very close scrutiny. This is the case with all who offer their work to the Church and I have certainly seen it many times, including with my own meager offerings. The best thing to do is to listen to it, accept and profit from legitimate criticism, and reject the rest. "

This from the previous 'de facto' top cantor, John Vernoski, for many of the parishes in the Pittsburgh Metropolia. His "meager" offerings spanned 25 years, an impressive mailing list and the imprimatur of Bishop Andrew (Eparchy of Passaic). His work did not undergo anywhere near as much international scrutiny by cantors as Thompson's.

Notable has been cantor Vernoski's ongoing difference of opinion with Prof. Thompson from day one broadcast clearly via byzcath.org. Efforts to counter the onslaught were rebuffed. a number of those who disagreed were banned or just stopped posting, realising that they were outgunned.

Now that Thompson is out of the picture, who becomes the next in line? If there is a revision of the rubrics (restoration of the 1942 rubrics) will the text be again set to the proper melodies, or highly modified, (almost experimental) settings with the proofreading of as many cantors who proofed the settings currently in use. There was close to 200 cantors who were regularly proofing the texts and settings. Of course, those cantors had little say regarding the translation.

It's been quiet lately

2007-12-14T22:20:00.000-08:00

Well, the biggest news is that in my church (Byzantine Catholic Pittsburgh Metropolia) we are getting a new bishop and our present bishop William is going to Passaic, NJ. I'm not sure yet how this bodes for our eparchy out west (Van Nuys). It does seem that each change of eparch notches us closer to our final dissolution as a viable church in the United States of (Complacency and) Assimilation where ethinc churches like the Ruthenian Church seem to dissappear into the assimilated fog of an increasingly secularised America.

The phantom missing posts after midnight Oct 11, 2007....

2007-10-11T18:51:00.000-07:00

Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=255770#Post255770

[quote=Dr John]

Let us please get beyond the 'externals' and focus on the ESSENTIAL elements of our Church: prayer, fasting, liturgy and 'koinotis' (=community) that lead us to salvation.

Blessings to ALL!

Dr John [/quote]

I agree, yet another reason why the full and official Ruthenian Rescension should be practiced and all this nonsense of the RDL should never have happened. Instead prayer, fasting, and I would add evangelization and renewal of our Orthodox roots should be focused on. + Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict both have called us to this, why don't we listen?

Monomakh

Theophilos replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=255991#Post255991

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Just wondering when the moderator is going to step in and admonish those posters who are taking patently uncharitable personal jabs at defenders of the RDL? To wit:

[quote]I am glad that you like the changes. More power to you my friend. My local RC parish has a Polka Mass a few times a year. You should come, you'd probably like that as well! [/quote] (Slavipodvizhnik, post 255949)

[quote]If you REALLY like the changes of the RDL, go back and read the post Stephanie Kotyuh made a few up from here. You might want to join that parish! [/quote] (Etnick, post 255953)

Are these kinds of comments really necessary? If so, perhaps I can offer an observation along these very lines:

If the two of you think the RDL, for all its shortcomings, is akin to a polka mass or a "guitar liturgy" in a nominally Byzantine parish in Cleveland, then you have given me good reason to fear, and perhaps to weep, for my family, friends and colleagues in the Orthodox Church.

For all the talk about having or not having @#$%$, it seems to me that it is the two of you need to grow up and be men.

Theophilos

Diak replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256000#Post256000

It has gone both ways, Theophilos, which can be pointed out - but which would help nothing. At least there is somewhere to discuss such things, "rough around the edges" though it may be.

Try sitting in on a discussion of evolution in public school curricula in Kansas, or any number of scientific or political controversies. In spite of all this is quite civil, I can assure you.

Etnick replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256012#Post256012

[quote=lcanthony]As author of this thread I had hoped for more than the usual body slamming of our Liturgy. If you want to split hairs I suspect our ancestors of centuries past would take umbrage with any version of the Divine Liturgy used in the last 200 years. THe Divine Liturgy is a living organism, always changing as societies and cultures change. If you want to be Orthodox, go ahead and be Orthodox. I've been there and done that. They go through their changes, Russian, Greek, OCA, Old Rite, new calendar, etc. They certainly aren't one big happy family. What is the goal of this fight other than the sake of a unhealthy dose of self righteousness? [/quote]

Theophilos, What were you saying about charity? :confused:

Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256038#Post256038

[quote=Theophilos]

[quote]I am glad that you like the changes. More power to you my friend. My local RC parish has a Polka Mass a few times a year. You should come, you'd probably like that as well! [/quote] (Slavipodvizhnik, post 255949)

[quote]If you REALLY like the changes of the RDL, go back and read the post Stephanie Kotyuh made a few up from here. You might want to join that parish! [/quote] (Etnick, post 255953)

Are these kinds of comments really necessary? If so, perhaps I can offer an observation along these very lines:

If the two of you think the RDL, for all its shortcomings, is akin to a polka mass or a "guitar liturgy" in a nominally Byzantine parish in Cleveland, then you have given me good reason to fear, and perhaps to weep, for my family, friends and colleagues in the Orthodox Church.

For all the talk about having or not having @#$%$, it seems to me that it is the two of you who need to grow up and be men.

Theophilos [/quote]

Theophilos,

I think that the salient point of the two posters is where does this all stop. When a parish and/or eparchy continually deviates from Tradition time after time, year after year, decade after decade, what's to preclude crazy things like polka masses, guitar masses, etc. from occurring. If you were to tell a Roman Catholic in 1950 that all these things would be occurring 20-50 years later, they would have thought you were exaggerating as well, but my friend it did happen and continues to happen. Will it happen here, no one knows, but there needs to people on guard to prevent it from happening. I've felt like the voice in the wilderness for many years, and it doesn't look like it is going to change unfortunately. The only thing I've ever seen Slavipodvizhnik and Etnick be guilty of is defending Tradition and the Faith.

:)

Monomakh

Theophilos replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256039#Post256039

The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.

Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.

Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).

Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.

I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.

It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.

In Christ,
Theophilos

Etnick replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256044#Post256044

[quote=Theophilos]The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.

Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.

Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).

Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.

I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.

It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.

In Christ,
Theophilos [/quote]

My whole point is how can the RDL be defended? There is absolutely NO excuse or reason for inclusive language in the Divine Liturgy. I won't even comment on the horrid music.

The Ruthenian Liturgy wasn't complete to begin with. I know of only one parish in my area that used the Red Book. That was tossed in the bonfire for them with the RDL. The Ruthenian liturgy needed fixing, not further destruction with needless revisions.

I wonder what the Patriarch and the rest of the Orthodox bishops think of the RDL. I wonder if any of them have been hospitalized from laughing so hard after reading it. How are they to take Orthodox/Catholic relations seriously if the Byzantine won't do it themselves.

As far as fairness on this forum, it's well known that the Administrator doesn't like the RDL. I'm not going to say that he's biased, so draw your own conclusion.

I think that some people here are just too thin skinned for lively debate. :D

Monomakh replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256047#Post256047

[quote=Theophilos]The truth, Etnick, is that your attempt to belittle his appreciation of the RDL by suggesting that he is not a "real" Byzantine only proves his point.

Please know that I say this as someone who finds much that is problematic with the RDL, from the inclusive language and awkward translations to the mandated uniformity (insofar as such uniformity circumscribes an even fuller flowering of our authentic liturgical life). I also think, however, that there is some good in the RDL, too -- the restoration of Theotokos comes immediately to mind.

Look, most of us have been, at one time or another in the course of this discussion, guilty of speaking uncharitably. I know I have done so (see my exchange with Elijahmaria a few months ago). But I do perceive an unfortunate unevenness in the enforcement of the rules of the Forum vis-a-vis defenders and critics of the RDL (see the banning of djs way back when or the suspension of Rufinus).

Now, my perception could be wrong, of course. Had I the time, I might subject this entire Forum to a scientific analysis to show that critics of the RDL who speak uncharitably are treated far more leniently than defenders who do the same.

I find this unevenness both maddening and disappointing. Given the unevenness in the number of posters who are critics of the RDL and those who are defenders, I would think that the critics would be held -- actually, hold themselves -- to an even higher standard, in the name of maintaining a free and open discussion. Certainly, all snitty, sniveling, yipping, and haughty comments should be verboten. But if I have the strength of numbers behind and beside me, and if I am actually interested in understanding the other side, I would not want to drive them away by insulting them.

It seems that opinion is not shared by everyone.

In Christ,
Theophilos [/quote]

Theophilos,

It's no secret that I'm not a fan of the RDL, so for what's it worth, I think that the administrators on all of these forums do a good job and I personally don't envy their job at all, I wouldn't want to be a moderator at all, it's not easy. I'm pleased that this forum exists and that these topcis can be discussed. I've had my share of retractions and apologies, and also had posts that I didn't get a chance to retract or explain because they were just flat out deleted. Did I agree with it, not every time, but I respect the moderators' decision and move on. If I want to express the things that were delected than I need to start my own board (I'm not going to that, see my note about a moderator above). My Indians are going to play the Red Sox in ALCS tomorrow. If we were to put Indians and Red Sox fans together in the same room, every close call would be viewed as bias towards one team when the call doesn't go our way. I think that its human nature to think that the umpi!
res, referees, moderators, etc. are out to get us, when 99 out of 100 they are not.

In the spirit of civil discussion, in my last post I asked where does all of these revisions end my friend? Once again, a Roman Catholic in 1950 would never have forseen what was to come in the next 50 years of their church. So while some things may seem like chicken little or exagerrations, please realize that crazier things have happened in our own lifetimes even. If you're serious about an academic discussion, let's do just.

:grin:

Monomakh

Father Anthony replied to a Watched Topic at the site:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=256082#Post256082

This thread is now closed with the above post. All posts after midnight on this date have been deleted. The thread went from actually having some good point being finally made by both sides of the issue to having all sorts of things irrelevant being introduced to it which have nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

I strongly suggest that in the future, points dealing only with the topic be discussed and that you leave the outside materials for other sections.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

As usual, in his heavier handed moderation style, Fr Anthony has chosen to excise the lengthy posts shown above for his own reasons after waiting many days after this thread started to wander off track.

Musings about the Liturguical changes

2007-10-07T22:29:00.000-07:00

Keep in mind that the promulgation and the changes with it are entirely an act of our hierarchs who drove the project, received approval from Rome, and mandated it. While various individuals have had a hand in the translations, the choices of rubrics to follow, and other decisions, the ultimate decision squarely rests with our hierarchy, period. If the Hierarchs had disagreements with those whom they had solicited input, I would gather the Hierarchs made the final call.

We, the faithful are left with a predicament, do we stay faithful, obedient yet voiceless about the changes and accept what our hierarchs have promulgated, without questioning? Do we leave our heritage for another church, which may have other problems, but with relatively intact liturgy? Or do we stay and question our bishops through letters, discussion and other means, making our voices heard?

If we choose to leave, our voices will have less impact on the Hierarchy, unless in large enough numbers, which surely would mean the demise of the Ruthenian Church in America. Do we love the Divine Liturgy or do we love our parishes (and our history)? We can love both only if we stay.

If we choose to stay, but just follow along without voicing displeasure with the translation, we are essentially ratifying their decision, whether we agree with the decisions or not. Again though we must ask ourselves, are we there for the Divine Liturgy or the parish family?

This brings us to choice number three, to stay and to voice displeasure with translation and rubrics, that are less in line with the other Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, in a hope of guiding our church through this troubled period.

I say this after having spent an wonderful, introspective weekend at Holy Resurrection Monastery where all the litanies are sung, the translations are more "liturgical" (no P.C. stuff, thank you). While they (HRM) are now under the omophor of the Romanian Catholic Eparchy, I still do feel a connection with them as a Rusyn Catholic in the Van Nuys Eparchy since they had a similar challenge before them a few years ago prior to the changes in the Divine Liturgy.

Throughout all this, I have deliberately not mentioned the music, Which I do find is a POSITIVE change from the Hierarchical mandate of the 1965 books wherein the music settings were grossly simplified (like so much in America). While much has been written debating the settings of the music, many of those issues have boiled down to the translation being somewhat less than poetic and not fitting to anything but the simplified forms of the melodies.

As to some of the claims that not all liturgies have been restored, the service of Matins has been restored so far as Music and text.

Again just as with Vespers, Matins and the Hours, it remains for our Hierarchs to lead with proper parochial instructions to only use vespers un the evenings and restore Matins on Sunday mornings. Perhaps at times, we all suffer from the common malady of the modern computer literate generation in desiring a[i]ll things[/i] to be instant. The positive changes to the Divine Liturgy will come, but at the same human pace that change has always come through the millenia, slowly.

Quite literally, my worthless opinion,

Steve

The Cradle vs Convert issue still survives...

2007-08-15T17:10:00.000-07:00

[quote]"I believe that Steve is incorrect in what he is stating here. All voices have been welcomed. Yet we have had some new Byzantines indicate that their opinions should be more valued than those with years of experience in various ministries (and that is wrong)."[/quote]

Welcomed so long as they are in line with the "cradle" view. Which was the point I was trying to make; that in our parishes and other means of interaction we subtly convey an attitude that unless everything they believe is 100%"cradle" then they are not "nash", our people.

A few examples by doing a simple search:

------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: Rufinus

Overall, I firmly disagree with what the moderator has written. I think that the Bishops have made the right decisions. I think that the Cantor Institute is right on track.

Just curious.

Where are you a cantor? What experience do you have cantoring?

Monomakh

-----------------------------------------------------
Rufinus,

You may be new to internet fora. Topics tend to occasionally drift, some more than others. Your review of the broadcast could help bring us back 'on topic'. ;\)

As for this being another 'cry room', are you surprised? The BCC isn't my Church, but I'm nearly brought to tears by what is being done to it by its leaders. I can't begin to imagine what it's like for those who have lived their entire lives in this Church. {BTW, you still haven't answered the question as to whether you are 'cradle' or 'convert'. Help keep things on topic and reply not here, but in the thread where the question was first asked. }

(posted by Kobzar)

--------------------------------------------------

It is also interesting that most of those involved with this reformation and those in favor of the RDL either are not originally Byzantine Catholic or Carpatho Rusyn (for the most part, there are those in traverse in favor...)

I see that Prof. Thompson is a registered user on this board, did he happen to vote? There is a definite vote yes...
(posted by Rusyn31)
-----------------------------------------------------
Again, seems to me to be a "Craddle vs. Convert" issue.
Craddle Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have a big problem with the new music. Converts don't have a problem with the new music probably because they never experienced the Church Slavonic Prostopinije liturgies.

Ungcsertezs

-----------------------------------------------

I Know, Enough about Byzcath!!!!!

2007-08-13T21:21:00.000-07:00

Yes but, it seems Fr. Anthony, the tireless vigilant moderator for truth and justice stikes again...Witness the following, my message to Fr Anthony:

Fr Anthony,

I am puzzled and disturbed by your sense of reasoning regarding Rufinus and this thread. The fact that Rufinus did not explicitly, overtly ,immediately, capitulate to your demand for a retraction based on your interpretation of his transgression, and the subsequent banning of him as a poster on Byzcath seems to remind me of a Gospel reading we just heard about forgiveness. Lately there seems to be little forgiveness shown toward those who are in favor of the RDL while the onslaught of negative commentary against the RDL continues unabated and unchecked.

While I see that you are Orthodox, you do come across as strictly authoritarian and somewhat uncompromising in your charity towards certain views.

Please read this carefully, as I do not wish to be banned based upon a purely PRIVATE letter to you which would be most uncharitable given the nature of private communications. I have often wondered why there is only one moderator,( you), of the RDL forum, and SEVERAL moderators of all other fora on this board.

To those of us observing the forum at Byzcath, it appears that you are being arbitrary in your exercise of power.

The pertinent posts which drew my attention to this matter:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U-C,

You can't accept the support of non-cradles and give them the right to speak when they agree with you and then tell non-cradles who disagree with you they have no right to comment. How long does one have to be a member of a particular Church before they have a right to speak? 10 years? 20 years? Never because they aren't cradles?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Rufinus,

Then that will be accepted as a retraction. I have received numerous complaints today over this "poor choice" of words in what seemed to be a personal attack on a poster. I allow free discussion as long as the forum rules of charity are followed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Posting to this thread may resume

Fr. Anthony:

I in no way meant to attack anyone. I meant only that I shall not engage in an ad-hominen argument. Period. What astounds me is just as you posted your reply just such an attempt was made. This is what I meant by an attempt at "personal assessment." I meant, I will not permit an ad-hominen argument to develop. Period. But you are right. My words do read with a generality that has overtones that simply do not exist. Please retract the statement.

Rufinus

Rufinus,

You are hereby given an indefinite suspension until such point as you are willing to retract. You have been known for playing these word games and until such time as you retract and act in the proper decorum, you will be outside looking in. There is nothing "ad-hominen" about the above post.

This thread is now closed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Another Yahoo group I'm off of

2007-08-11T18:08:00.000-07:00

Well, it seems too trite to have even been worth such a fuss.

The moderator/owner of Byzantine Catholics Speak has decided that my presence is no longer desired in her sandbox. her final email to me is a bit confused:

Dear Steve,

A few moments after your peevish withdrawl, I got the message at the end of my note here, from Seglinde.

I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company.

I'll keep you and kathielee and hermit[man] in my prayers.

Thanks again for you contributions to the list...those things of real substance I mean. When you speak substantively, you are a real gem of a participant. Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all.

You are surely welcome back at any time but not to fly into a fit of peeve every time your sensitivities get tweaked.

Mary

Strange thing is, I had only posted exactly four messages on that group prior to this: My last message having been a rebuke over the tone of the posts. Specifically thus:

"Hows about changing the subject line too, since the thread has slid father than father's original slide?

Steve,
(Unworthy lurker) "

When things got heated between Mary (owner/moderator) and another member, Hermit, I posted the following rebuke:

"WOW!!!! This email list is becoming a replica of Byzcath.org ,(including the threats to ban/moderate members), now that the forum on Byzcath has quieted down to a mere whisper lately,

Time to turn off the email feed and find some peace and quiet.

Steve

Mary Lanser wrote:
It is prideful to come into an area of the Church of which you have little knowledge and refuse to listen long enough to dispel ignorance.

It is also prideful to come among strangers and take over.

One more such outburst and I will put you on moderation till you can learn a little self control...no...a LOT of self control.

Mary

On 8/10/07, *Hermit* <hermitary302@yahoo.com > wrote:

St. Basil said: "To be proud is sometimes virtuous. To have pride
is a vice always. It is a killer vice. It is a big, bad major
slayer! Pride leads the parade of capital sins and always wants to
be first. Humility seeks the least or nothing. "

My reply to Mary, thus ending our rather short exchange of words, and my involvement from the beginning of her group was such:

Mary,

While my support is well appreciated, I gather it wasn't appreciated well enough to retain membership on the group.

In another email you wrote:
"I have removed you from the membership list along with kathielee and hermit. There's no real need for you all to torture yourselves with our miserable company."...."Otherwise you are just plain snitty and that isn't very helpful at all. "

That comes across as "snitty" in it's own respect. Either you you do or you don't respect my views. period. I gather that you don't really respect my views because you place more weight on a few "snitty" remarks over anything substantive that I have posted.

I pray that you will find peace in whatever church you find yourself in. I myself don't like the revision of the RDL however I will remain faithful to the church of my family for so many generations before me, good bishop or bad bishops, good priests or bad priests, good cantors or bad cantors.

I regret our parting of ways was not as peaceful as one would hope, but it is a parting nonetheless.

In Christ,

Steve

So, a learning lesson to all: When it's somebody else's sandbox you've been invited to play in, they are always right even when they are totally wrong. Such is life. Mary started her group out of frustration and anger and her dealings with people there are still colored by that same anger. May Mary find peace in her search for the perfect church which squares with her views.

Some Youtube.com offerings

2007-06-27T23:04:00.000-07:00

A video from Ukraine last year when I visited.

Into my twighlight of byzcath.org

2007-04-16T22:44:00.000-07:00

Christos Anesti!

Fr. Anthony,

You posted further down:

"Father Serge and ByzanTN, Christ is Risen!

Somehow you have already managed to steer this thread off topic. Neither of your posts has anything to do with the question asked in the opening post. ...."

I don't see how ByzanTN's post particularly steered this thread off topic. However, the prior reference to camels by Fr Serge sure did!!! Ed Hash's post didn't help either.

Just curious....

It seems that since the whole subject of the RDL is contentous, those who have stayed on to debate it could probably use a little humor since the people who have the answers have apparently stopped visiting this board due to the lopsided playing field.

Myself, I have stopped posting here because of the views of several strong posters (including the Admin). I only watch now with sadness at all the venom spewed forth in these posts regarding the tragic experiment called the RDL. If we as a church (BCC) are not strong enough to handle such changes, then perhaps we will slowly, but unstoppably die away into history, as a footnote to the whole of church history. It does not make it any less uncomfortable for those of us who quietly fight to preserve our heritage and church.

In a way we're like the early Christians, folly to the Greeks, and a conundrum to the Jews. Just substitute Roman Catholic and Orthodox and in the middle you have us; Greek Catholics. At times it seems we are reviled and ostracised by both Catholics and Orthodox for wanting to be both.

Perhaps, it too is time I removed by bookmark to Byzcath.org and let it go...

Steve

My response to Monomakh, in case byzcath deletes it...

2007-03-21T22:56:00.000-07:00

Monomakh,

I haven't searched the archives yet. Does your own parish, If BCC, serve Matins? How many OCA parishes serve matins? How many ACROD parishes? The problem is more widespread than just the BCC.

As to on verses of the antiphons.....sigh.... I had hoped that there would be restoration of the full antiphons. Sadly in our church's history there has bee one verse of the antiphons for far too long. The last 100 years seems to be too far back in our church's history to find REGULARLY sung multiple verses of the antiphons. Yes maybe 1% of our parishes did sing all three antiphons with all three verses on a REGULAR basis.

Too often we here seem to be like the three blind men describing an elephant based upon the limited information we can gather by what we experience. To extrapolate our parish experience to all the Metropolia will always be incomplete. Some parishes celebrate a fuller cycle of liturgical services than do others. This seems more a function of the priests (and to some small extent the laity) in the individual parishes. Would that our Bishops mandate better consistency in the celebration of Liturgies throughout our Eparchies!!! {oh wait, they did and many rebelled!!!} Would that our Bishops followed the Orthodox celebration of the liturgical cycle. Would that all BCC's wish for such a renewal!

To call this restoration akin to the "Democratic People's Republic" of North Korea is somewhat misleading and extreme. Perhaps you could cite when in our history as a church the people (laity) have ever had so much say in how the liturgy is celebrated?

This, my unworthy $.0002 opinion,

Steve

more brotherly love from Byzcath.org.....

2007-03-21T22:13:00.000-07:00

A poster at byzcath.org "Etnick" wrote this recently,

"Can you join me for vespers this Saturday? Oh! I forgot! Vespers is only celebrated in 1% of BCC churches. (I was being generous with 1%) Good luck with watered down Byzantine Liturgy!"

Enough with this BS posturing about watered down liturgies!!! Geeeez! Does byzcath.org endorse such statements? It seems so, since by and large there is a blatant bias regarding allowing such posts while suppressing posts which favor any of the revisions or opinions supporting them. There are most likely more than 1% of BCC parishes that REGULARLY celebrate vespers. Not every Orthodox parish is a model of perfection compared to each BCC parish. Etnick seems to be quite insulated in his commentary toward the BCC on byzcath.org which he admits to having left for the Orthodox Church. Are we remaining BCC's to stand by idly with this sort of attack? NO! If we dislike the changes to the Liturgy we must remain BCC! If we all run away from our parishes all we will succeed in doing is hastening the collapse of the Byzantine Cathollic Church. If we truly love our church we should stick to it and pray that our Bishops will undertake to correct some of the mistakes (and the misgivings) in regard to the recent revision of our Divine Liturgy. Overall, their hearts are in the right place, it was more the manner in which the revision was presented (or not represented) to the laity which caused such a problem.

For a balanced, moderated board(Byzcath.org) , this seems to be the usual tone of lately of the more strident posters who have agendas and are seeming allowed free reign to post such diatribes. So much for balance and Christian charity on byzcath.org!....

A Heartfelt Post on ByzCath.org

2007-03-13T22:34:00.000-07:00

"Brethren in Risen Christ, our Life and Saviour,

Invited in April 2005 by a noble sister in Christ, I joined this forum, where I found a fine place for expressing in writing a few thoughts, prayers as well.

I have no idea how, but this forum, the only where I post sometimes, transformed slowly and I could not define it how is now. But it is not more that fine place.

However, I do know that valuable members began to visit it more rare, being bittered by certain aspects such as adversity between Catholic and Orthodox, or being bittered by the discussions upon the revised Divine Liturgy etc. etc.

Members who contributed with their love to this forum.

Therefore, I, a nothingness, dare to remind you all these words:

Quote:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.
(John 13, 34-35, NIV)

As you already know, love is a commandment, not an option. Even if this board is a virtual one, we must care of every word, for we will answer before our Master for every word.

We all need the mercy of God.

I hope that this forum will promote the unity between the Sisters Churches, and foremost of all will testify the Risen Christ.

Are we disciples of Lord Jesus Christ?

Remembering now a gentle Saint, Saint Isaac the Syrian, I say with all heart:

May God fill your souls with Eternal Life! Amen & Amin!

In Risen Christ <><

Brother Marian+"

I could not have said it any better!!!!
Marian is seeing the forum from the eyes of a non-American( Eastern European) perspective. We have become so accustomed to venting our feelings about the changes in the Pittsburgh Metropolia that we forget how our brethren around the world see us.

Old Church Slavonic, a lost language......almost

2007-03-07T22:31:00.000-08:00

Slowly, it seems, there is an immutable force driving a noble church language into the realm of a truly dead language. This force is actually the force of many individuals who actively and passively do not care for this once prolific language used in the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches of the Slavic variety. The reasoning given for not using it is that "no one understands it" or " we never sing it". of course both lines of reasoning are self fulfilling. By not using a language, it will automatically die out.

It becomes more frustrating when a younger generation wishes to learn this language and its beauty while an older generation looks askance and dismisses anyone who wants to learn it.

Why learn Old Church Slavonic? We have translations in English now so there is no more need to bother with that 'dead' language anymore. While we are trying to kill the language, we are at the same time desperately preserving the music which was set originally to that language!!! The irony! If there was truly a desire to rid our church of Slavonic, then why bother to keep a musical tradition which utilised the multisyllabic nature of Slavonic? It seems the answer has more to do with a hierarchy that cares not to know the language than the faithful who still long for hearing the Liturgy in the language of their ancestors.

A few more reflections

2007-01-30T18:21:00.000-08:00

I have grown so tired of these posters on Byzcath.org attacking good people such as Prof. Thompson and Fr David Petras for their involvement with the revision. I know Prof. Thompson from my trips to Pittsburgh for the MCI classes over the last 6 years. (Five flights each year!) I travelled with him to Uzhorod last summer where I have pictures of him with Metropolitan Nicholas.

My own experience with crossover between jurisdictions has always been positive.

Last year while visiting in Perth Amboy, NJ (after just having been in Uzhorod, with Prof Thompson) I wound up singing a Parastas at the ACROD church since there was no cantor available. I had gone in on a Monday morning hoping for the possibility of attending a liturgy only to find no one inside. I went up to the icon at the tetrapod to venerate it. I heard a rustling in the sacristy and hoped that Fr would come out if there wasn't going to be a liturgy. He did. He indicated that originally he was going to have a Parastas/Panachida that morning but the cantor wasn't able to make it. Being a cantor myself, I volunteered my services. Fr. accepted, and I sang the Panachida, Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox style! It helped that I had already met him a few years back.

This church, St John the Baptist, was the same church that my grandfather had been assigned to by Bishop Basil Takach in the 20's. In the 30's the parish council voted to go orthodox (ACROD) and told the catholic parishioners they could leave. My grandfather was one of those who remained Catholic and left, helping to form a new parish (St Nicholas) located only a mile away. When I first visited the ACROD parish three years ago, I learned that my grandfather had not completly severed ties to that parish and was in fact fondly remembered.

Many times, I have sung with my local OCA church choir for Vespers and even some of the all Slavonic liturgies they do once a month. I have even chanted the psalms at the Antiochian Orthodox parish. The priests at both parish know I am Byzantine Catholic and have even come to some of our parish dinners.

2006-10-30T20:18:00.000-08:00

C'mon people! Where's the strong posts of protest? It's so easy to derail a thread that has such promise like this one. Is outrage that there is less outrage! Burn those calories in angry protest!!! Raise your blood pressure over an issue you have no real control over! Send your checks for Fr. Serge's book. Read it through and through. Run to the Orthodox church where everything is perfect! Don't lose steam now....page 3 was going so strong, what happened?

While "on Eagles Wings" in being set to prostopinije tone 9, make the full revision and translate it into Latin! Revise the proposed liturgy revision with your own "hit parade" of cover versions to suit every fancy.

Seriously, this thread started off with a well thought out proposition (of which I don't agree with all the points), and like most threads on this topic of topics has degenerated into the usual silliness surrounding this debate.

in response to the original post:
1) after telling your priest you don't want the DL revised, what can he do that you haven't already done? Withholding your tithe will only close your parish faster.
2) Write you Eparch first before step 1. There is more at stake.
3) Perhaps this should be step 1.
4) presuming you obtain actual copies of the proposed liturgy rather than initial documents which can and will be disputed. Little litanies were lost in Parma/Van nuys back in the 70's folks.
5) support Fr Serge's efforts to control our heirarchs and buy his book with the money you saved by not tithing.
6) when the revised liturgy arrives in your parish, take time to actually try it before you throw it away. The advice given in the original post amounts to 'don't vote in November, the outcome won't change'.

Yes our dear priests will likely have no choice in the matter but close the parish because their parishioners left without first seeing what the change was really about. As to speaking out with impunity, I know from experience that it does come back to haunt you. Will it be "too late" once the revision comes out? There has been change before , there will continue to be change after.

One can already check out other churches without waiting for the revision. If you are anxious to leave the Pittsburgh Metropolia for Orthodox jurisdictions, don't let the spectre of a translation change get in your way.

Steve

More thoughts on Byzcath.org Revised Liturgy Forum

2006-10-24T22:26:00.000-07:00

Forty two years ago, a major change was made to our liturgy, did we have a say in it? How many people know who was on the commision then? Does anybody remember when the changes were promulgated? It helps that then, we did not have the internet to hyper rapidly speed news, opinions, and counter opinions into households and parishes within the Metropolia of Pittsburgh.

Today we see a sad recurrence of distrust within the Metropolia tearing our ailing church apart. In this sub forum, The Revised Divine Liturgy there has been a strong anti IEMC/IELC/MCI sentiment shown toward any pro IEMC/IELC/MCI posts. Two stubborn divergent camps have formed, with a lack of charity growing each day as the debate grows more personal.

Have we forgotton the painful experiences of our past? No. But we seem to repeat them nonetheless. While posters on both side of the issue make claim and counter claim, watchers from many churches, Catholic and Orthodox, look on in amazement as we tear each other apart verbally, rather than build each other up. Sadly there have been a number of priests caught up in both sides of this debate who have showed a lack of charity at times. I do not use the word lightly given that I too have been sometimes less than charitable in my posts, and have been admonished for it by the admin.

One side claims our liturgy never changes. The other counters that it has always changed over the centuries. Both sides are correct.

I used to enjoy browsing byzcath.org before The Revised Divine Liturgy forum appeared.

Two posts caught my attention to this:

[quote]This thread instead of being an informative discussion of church, has degraded into attacks on personal character and unfounded accusations. Instead of proving a point, undo enemies to any efforts are being further created. Rather than have this futile exercise continue I am closing this thread.

I am deeply disappointed in the matter that things have been represented on this thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ [/quote]

and by Admin:

[quote]First point:

:Jeff wrote:
"...you should probably START by convincing the bishops that your request for a broader review comes from honest interest and willingness to help."

Such a statement is offensive and I demand that you offer an immediate apology to the entire Forum community.

There is no one who is participating in this discussion who does not have an honest interest and a willingness to serve our Church. Never, ever conclude that principled disagreement by fellow Christians amounts to dishonesty and unwillingness to serve the Church. [/quote]

After valiantly making his point time and again amid the animosty shown toward his knowledge by some members of the forum, I feel Jeff certainly owes me no apology as a member of the forum, unless you feel that I am not part of the "entire Forum community". There is great frustration on all sides of an issue that lacks clear resolution from our heirarchs who should be leading our church.

Even when any liturgical and music changes are promulgated there is always the possibility of further change. If there weren't a possibility of change, there wouldn't/couldn't have been any changes implemented ever in the past. Is our Liturgy exactly (as in identical in every word action and note) the same as was celebrated 100 years ago?500 years? 40 years?

My worthless use of bytes on the internet,

Steve

Some thoughts on the debate of "new" music on Byzcath.org

2006-09-04T11:59:00.001-07:00

Why is the music from the current Pittsburgh Metropolia IEMC constantly being reffered to as "new" music? The only "new" part of the music is in fact the translation. The music is primarily taken from a 100 year old text published in Uzhorod, Ukraine.

Is there some [i]older[/i] music that we should be using instead?

I think of "new" music as the 1964/65 music commission's work which had an episcopal directive of 'keep it(the music) simple'. For more than a complete generation now we have been singing this "new" music, that came at the same time as a translation coincidentally.

The real issue has not been the music but the revised translations and the underlying revisions to the rubrics. The "new" music from the IEMC is no more difficult to sing than the 'original' Slavonic of 100 years ago.

Perhaps it is my biased view that things were not as we necessarily imagined them to be 100 years ago in the 'glory' days of our musical tradition.
Each of us only knows a tiny fraction of the history. Each of us also has a bias of our own history to colour our perceptions of what the past was.

It was enlightening to see and hear what was realy happening in modern day Ukraine and compare what has transpired in the USA with the music and translation issues.

More Uzhorod pictures

2006-07-11T19:28:00.000-07:00

Captions coming soon...

1.) The opening Moleben to Blessed Theodore Romzha. 2)Bishop John and Milan Shashik 3.) Orthodox and Catholics Bishops (& Metropolitan Nicholas) together at worship. 4.) Bishop John, Bishop Milan Shashik, & Bishop at lunch in Seminary. 5.) Banner at entrance to seminary. 6.) Tomb of Bishop Theodore Rohmza. 7.) Cathedral in Muckachevo, Ukraine

WOW! What a trip!

2006-07-11T19:07:00.000-07:00

Uzhorod, 2006 Conference on Prostopinije. Well, finally I have pictures.

The Greek Catholic Cathedral in Uzhorod, exterior & interior

One Month Before the Great Trip

2006-05-23T09:50:00.000-07:00

To Uzhgorod...possibly the one time I can "afford" it. Stiil unemployed, but very much looking forward to the upcoming trip. It promises to be exciting, challenging, unusual, memorable and probably a host of other adjectives I haven't conjured up yet! I must remind myself that I should let things happen as they may and not get upset about the numerous changes in plans that are bound to arise.

I still have shopping and packing to do...a month seems like so little time, yet the event seems so far off!

A Joyous Orthodox Pascha to all!

2006-04-26T10:56:00.000-07:00

For those who celebrate the old calender Pashca, Christos Voskrese! Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!

Although I am Catholic, I have always felt the connection with our seperated brethern in the Orthodox church.

View of St Nicholas OCA in McKees Rocks, PA.

Upcoming Trip This June

2006-02-21T21:09:00.000-08:00

This June, I hope to make a trip to Uzhgorod, Ukraine for the 100th anniversary of the publication of Bokshay's "Prostopinije". It will mark my first major trip abroad, so I am hoping that all will go reasonably well.

"Prostopinije" was published in 1906 as a compilation of plain chant music for the Byzantine-Rusyn (Ruthenian) church. There are earlier texts that are sinilar to this, though not as well circulated as this text became. In 1925 Joachim Racsin published his collection of "Prostopionije" which followed Bokshay, and added more material form various sources. The 1944 "Plain Chant" and later the "Basic Chant" by Fr Andrew Sokol provided a transliterated text of Boshay's "Prostopinije" into Latin text (OCS pronunciation). Still later in 1969 Fr. Stefan Papp publlished his "Irmologion" which again used Bokshay as a refernce, though he included many particular melodies used in the Presov region that do not appear in the origional 1906 volume.

Interestingly in all three successor volumes some of the same musical typography errors are faithfullly copied. A particular example is the now less-used 'Voshel Jesi' melody for the Bishop's entrance.

I hope the conference is understandable (ie not entirely in Ukrainian) to an eager 'non-academic' like myself.

Steve P

Introduction

2006-02-11T20:34:00.000-08:00

Vecernaja Zorja-Evening star

A commentary blog of Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy from the view of a cantor in the Eastern Catholic Church.

As a somewhat travelled cantor from the Eparchy of Van Nuys (Pittsburgh Metropolia, Byzantine Catholic) There are some thoughts i'd share with the 2 or 3 readers of this blog. (I doubt there would be more).

Steve